It’s actually about power and leverage, not lifestyle. Rich people don’t actually spend most of their money on personal luxuries, they spend it on acquiring more wealth, which translates into more control over resources and people’s lives. Regular people don’t actually spend most of their money on luxuries, they spend it on maintaining their place in a world someone else owns.
The narrative that it is about what level of material status someone is living in or deserves is a distraction. It wouldn’t matter at all if the rich started living more spartan lifestyles. They still have the wealth and power, that will manifest one way or another as control over other people’s lives, and that’s what they’re really there for.
The point is that if that money is used to pay employees properly, the wealth/power balances evaporate, and we’ll have a much fairer society society where our democracy isn’t undermined by monied interests.
if [yacht money] is used to pay employees properly, the wealth/power balances evaporate
Several issues with this. As other comments have pointed out, the specific money in question here isn’t actually very significant. But say you expand what’s considered to all company profits. A company won’t voluntarily pay more for a service of a given quality than they have to, because its existence depends on being better at profit seeking than other companies. If they do have to (maybe because of a regulation) pay more than the market rate, the priority is going to be reorganizing the business to employ fewer people, overwork the people who are still employed, or otherwise arrange themselves so that as much of the profits as possible are still going to the owners. The power dynamic between employer and employee remains the same, because their relative negotiating power is largely unchanged, and so would be the balance of wealth.
the specific money in question here isn’t actually very significant.
It’s all the revenue leeched away from workers to shareholders - that’s the majority of the entire global economy. What are you talking about?
A company won’t voluntarily pay more for a service of a given quality than they have to, because its existence depends on being better at profit seeking than other companies.
I’m not proposing we make it voluntary.
If they do have to (maybe because of a regulation) pay more than the market rate, the priority is going to be reorganizing the business to employ fewer people, overwork the people who are still employed, or otherwise arrange themselves so that as much of the profits as possible are still going to the owners.
Companies aren’t welfare schemes - they run as lean as possible today. I’m proposing the workers be the owners.
The power dynamic between employer and employee remains the same, because their relative negotiating power is largely unchanged, and so would be the balance of wealth.
Workers own the company, workers get paid fairly, workers decide how the company is run. Shareholders no longer exist, and must live off the welfare state or get a real goddamn job.
I’m proposing the workers be the owners.
What I like about this solution is that it does to some extent directly address the problem of negotiating power. I am skeptical about the practicality and sustainability though. For example there was a worker owned brewery I was aware of, which had an employment scheme in which accumulated time in the company translated into shares of ownership. The brewery became successful, and the now somewhat wealthy workers preferred to keep their wealth rather than continuing to distribute it to new employees, and so they voted to sell and accept a payout. I’m not sure this is an easily solved issue; it seems that any financial endeavor will have winners and losers, and the winners will do what they can to retain their position.
This is because co-ops these days still have to compete in a capitalist market, and need to be ruthless to remain competitive. I’m not saying this is good. Just that it’s not a problem inherent to worker management - it’s a problem with the system they have to work under.
If this worker management extended to the whole economy - i.e. socialism - then these incentives would no longer exist. The economy would no longer be a competition requiring ruthless tactics.
The Mondragon Corporation is an interesting example of a cooperative scaling up https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Mondragon_Corporation
Isn’t this solved if you can’t sell your shares?
I don’t think it would be. What happens when someone leaves the company or is pushed out? Automatically lose their shares? Who determines what proportion of shares or pay you get for which roles or level of seniority? What about nepotism? Ownership implies control, control gets used to advance your own interests.
This is far enough down the line with enough positive progress to be had in the meantime (e.g. German-style employee representation in boards, greater share grants to employees, etc.) that I’m comfortable figuring that one out later.
My gut feel would be that you share profits while you work for the company and lose the shares when you leave. There would be a fairly equitable allocation of shares irrespective of roles with employees to vote for greater allocations if needs dictate. Nepotism would be dramatically reduced compared to today with a more democratic workplace. Much like I like my countries democratic, I like my workplaces democratic - the interests of the workers are the interests of the nation.
Shareholders at least the ones beating the market have a different skill set to workers. Replacing them with other workers might have issues with long term success.
I think you’d be better off changing laws that suppress workers wages and laws that unnecessary increase their expenses particularly rent
Owning things isn’t a skill, my dude. This is evident in the fact that almost the entire human race owns something.
Agreed on owning things I was talking about those getting an above market return.
Of what value is that to society? If there’s no value and massive downsides, why should we
protectreward them?When the market is shaped by austerity politics, corporate welfare, and wage depression, then “getting an above market return” depends on austerity politics, corporate welfare, and wage depression (which still is not the same as the “skill set” of owning shares).
Your objection sidesteps the broader observations, of how the masses of workers are oppressed by the greed of the very few, who sustain a self-serving narrative.
That skillset would no longer be relevant; their jobs would be made redundant. Companies in this scenario no longer need to seek growth and increasing profit margins. They only need to earn enough to pay their own salaries. And, because the workers are the ones who collectively manage the company, they can democratically make strategic plans for future production, and logistical changes to increase efficiency and reduce the amount of work necessary and improve their working conditions.
In abstract sense, when you make profit, it means that you’ve made a sufficiently good path to some end for other people. Like in electrical engineering.
The more your “path-shortening” effect, the bigger your profit.
It’s a system leading to optimization (in abstract).
they can democratically make strategic plans for future production, and logistical changes to increase efficiency and reduce the amount of work necessary and improve their working conditions
While this isn’t.
I’d be happy to see any idea aimed at improving human life conditions, general happiness and so on succeed. Just with leftist conversations it always looks like “the brakes and safety measures are making the car too expensive, let’s get rid of them”.
In abstract sense, when you make profit, it means that you’ve made a sufficiently good path to some end for other people.
In an abstract sense, sure. But in reality, profit does not require you to do any good. If it’s more expensive to dispose of waste ethically, for example, then waste will be disposed of unethically.
Like in electrical engineering.
Yes, I can’t argue that jobs exist that help other people.
The more your “path-shortening” effect, the bigger your profit.
Not necessarily. Insurance is one example.
It’s a system leading to optimization (in abstract).
In the abstract, I agree. But left to play out, monopoly and bureaucracy inevitably emerge.
While this isn’t.
Why not?
I’d be happy to see any idea aimed at improving human life conditions, general happiness and so on succeed.
Okay. Me, too.
Just with leftist conversations it always looks like “the brakes and safety measures are making the car too expensive, let’s get rid of them”.
I really don’t mean to be snide, but you have this backwards. Under capitalism, it requires the state to intervene to regulate it in order to, for example, add safety measures to cars. Socialist economies are, as I mentioned, democratic. The people need safety measures, and the people are in control of production, so safety measures will be in place.
I agree. As a major shareholder and successful business owner, I’m far better at relaxing on a beach in Bali than the lazy poors are. Our skill sets are not comparable.
The power dynamic between employer and employee remains the same, because their relative negotiating power is largely unchanged, and so would be the balance of wealth.
Louder for the people in the back.
welcome to commnistium
Just a jokeIf we can level the inequality before transitioning so power doesn’t just reconsolidate, yeah - that’d be great.
Many other distractions, like skin color, religion, sex orientation. Poor have one advantage and that is the numbers, at least in democracies. So you need to gerrymander them in any way you can think about.
No, having superior numbers is not necessarily an advantage. Crowds have unpleasant effects due to scale, when you’d want to organize them on some issue or even just inform them.
I’m not talking riots, I’m talking voting.
Even in that case. People often vote against their own best interest. Crowd effects play a big role in this.
But still, it’s the best thing the gen pop has.
Rich people are just better, and because they’re better anything they do with their money is automatically better. So they should get all the money and if you want to be a good person just get rich like them.
The ol’ more money = better than theory
David Cross, my love!
They think they got rich by sacrificing lattes and avocado toast. Therefore… you can be rich too!
I still remember reading a blog by someone explaining how easy it is to become rich like them. Step 3 or 4 was “Rent out the downtown condo your mother gifted you when you got married and continue living at home working at your parents non-profit” because obviously everyone gets a free condo when they get married.
As much of a joke as it sounds, the person was completely serious.
Mitt Romney’s wife shared this lovely story of when they were in college, they didn’t ask anything from their parents. They’d come visit and got them a nice dinner, that was it. Ann Romney had to order carpet samples and sew them together so they didn’t have to walk on bare floors. Sometimes, they were so stripped of cash that they had to sell stock to get money. They had to sell stock. SELL. STOCK.
She probably thought it was an uplifting story.
I vividly remember that and it really was as out of touch as it sounds. Mitt released a bunch of tax returns at least, voluntarily unlike someone else, and they confirm his extraordinary wealth. Out of touch doesn’t begin to describe some of these people.
Rationalizing something that just happened to you in life’s lottery is a very common thing for humans.
I mean, some people here thinking that they are not “rich” because of being honest, cause all the “rich” are dishonest bastards, is of the same root.
I agree that both are wrong and also that being that disconnected from the reality is bad. It’s just that there are much more categories other than rich/poor in which many of us got the longer stick.
It’s Murphys golden rule: whoever has the gold makes the rules
Because they can afford to pay the propaganda bots to mass post shite all over the internet
Shareholders are leeches on society. Every dollar they earn was snatched from the workers that earned that dollar. We should focus on incentivising people that work for a living - not the lazy cunts that just own shit.
And unfortunately businesses have abdicated their responsibility for their workers retirements to the market. Many of us are now shareholders by way of our 401Ks.
They steal our retirement, I think it’s fair we steal their companies and resources.
Personally I sleep much better at night knowing I’m in control of my own wealth and retirement planning. I wouldn’t want my retirement to be in the hands of a pension plan administered by my employer or a third party.
deleted by creator
Please please please be referring to the toys.
deleted by creator
So… No toys?
I would be eagerly sharing my toys, but fuck such kids.
They can afford to give the employees a bigger wage, they just don’t want to because the employees are willing to work for the current wage.
That and even small raises over a large group add up significantly. It’s literally cheaper for them to spend millions fighting it.
Willing takes out all the nuance. Forced to do so because of market forces, available jobs, location, skills, other responsibilities…
The illusion of choice
Your landlord can’t pay the morgage!
ELKG: “Trickle down economics” is a lie, but there is a truth that nobody speaks “Trickle down memes”. Billion dollars of capital spent making movies that fill all the meme networks. And audiences who bitch and complain if one CGI scene has the slightest distortion, who bitch about production quality at every opportunity. They are addicted to the billionaires who fund their “Trickle down memes” that they copy/paste to every social media website for decades.
EL_Toddler: The Population of society is addicted to the images, faces, voices of the rich and powerful - even when they are incredibly ugly icons - they can’t stop speaking about their distinct orange skin color and the power that comes with political power and media stardom - “you can grab them by the pussy” power.
That power comes from the population, The People, who can’t resist repeating the memes. Worked for The Church in Europe in 1450 when the population was similarly meme-addled until a priest in Germany upset the meme apple cart and translated The Meme Book to German from Latin. A new printing press in Germany helped that too, even if The Church funded the first printings.
Remember kid, Tricke down Economics is a lie, Trickle Down Memes and images of the politicians, religion symbol memes, orange skin color images, they TRICKLE DOWN and that is REAL POWER over The Population! A population who can not resist taking an image of a famous orange person and repeating it hour after hour on their meme copying machines they hold in their hands or sit on their desk.
P.S. In polices, repeating a name alone, campaign signs that just show a couple colors on meme symbols and signs - work well on the population. This is proven with statistics of voting results vs. money spent on spreading the name. People generally do not go into issues and validate the performance after election that the politician is honest and delivers… name recognition by shear trickle-down of meme signs in yards, endorsements by other meme icons of society, and repeating their image and name in other places is what it takes.
Well… you see…
If You have 2 Apples, You can’t eat 3.
deleted by creator
Two neoliberals won’t be our only choices forever.
We have competition amongst economists and the marketplace of ideas will always continue to evolve toward better neoliberalism.
That’s funny because this system is highly inefficient and anti-meritocratic. The marketplace of ideas seems like it doesn’t even stock my favorite brands.
Yes, Hayek is still relevant. And you are right, just took time to understand.
People thinking he’s not are ignorant in mathematical statistics, control theory and obviously economics. I mean, ignorance and leftism, as always.
Lots of bootlickers are simply not understanding the intended message, of challenging the austerity narrative promulgated by the ruling class, which supports their selfish interests of private accumulation by oppressing the working class.
ELIIK: Some people have more, and they can do more things.
Pretty much what my parents told me about money when I was little & they said no to the junk foods I wanted.
