Context: X11Libre is a fork of X11 aiming at preserving the X Server (fair enough, right?). One of the creators got permanently banned from freedesktop.org for apparently violating the Code of Conduct (no info on that, they just blame Red Hat), see themselves as hunted by both Big Tech and “toxic elements” who “took over the X11 project” They want to “make X great again”.
The issue about their highly political README (which they wrote due to the original project “becoming too political”, lol) also contains the usual red flags like transphobia. https://github.com/X11Libre/xserver/issues/40
I miss the days when the OS community found -often painful- ways to deal with excentric or even toxic and erratic developers. That definitely had more class than conformist mobs celebrating each character assassination of somebody disagreeing. Not that I’d support any anti-vax bullshit or bigotry, I just dislike mobs of holier-than-thous. Because they aren’t holy or as “good” as they think they are. IMO they’re just the sort of people waiting for a reason to get their torches and pitchforks. I don’t think that’s any better, morally, or less intolerant than having unhinged opinions.
You’re not calling out anyone here. That has happened elsewhere. You’re nothing but gossiping about it. You’re not the defenders of anything but spiteful, ugly people.
“No, go away.”
That’s a perfectly valid way to deal with toxic contributors. There’s always people with better social skills and equal developer skills out there, you don’t have to accept and include toxic people just because they wrote some code.
Just alienate them more and they will get better on their own… Right?
I think the guy you’re responding to is saying that communication and not alienation is how we bring these people out of whatever holes they’ve dug themselves into.
I know hes getting downvoted a ton, but if my take on what he wrote is correct then I also agree with him.
The reason the world is so divided right now is because nobody wants to talk through things with open minds and with empathy.
You can’t engage such people in good faith, and it’s impossible to convince them to adopt a different viewpoint. People much smarter than you have tried and failed.
I don’t doubt it… but there has to be some way to pull people back from the hole they’ve dug themselves into. Straight up ignoring them seems counterproductive, but you’re right… I’m not an expert and im sure people have tried
It just feels sad and frustrating to me as well. This guy obviously seems to have some talent but got sucked into something that overshadows his talent with just plain idiocy on things he doesn’t know anything about it seems like…
Really sad times
Edit: just read the article you sent. This was particularly in the case of sending out messaging where people can’t have a discussion back with you.
Your last sentence is somewhat naive. It can often place the onus on the wrong group. People don’t want to engage with the XLibre dude with open minds and empathy any more because back when they did, he didn’t engage with an open mind or empathy. You can only do that for so long before you have to isolate and protect. Quarantine, deplatforming, and isolation works when someone refuses to engage. At some point you have to be intolerant of intolerance if you want to get anything done.
Scope some literature on deradicalization. There is only so much empathy you can give someone who thinks an entire group of people don’t deserve to be human and, more importantly, there has to be a cutoff when you’re not getting empathy back. You’re right, empathy and an attempt to understand is important. Don’t forget many people in marginalized or attacked groups have to defend their existence every single fucking day so sometimes their empathy is pretty drained.
I totally understand and I’m more ranting about this just in general… My in laws are super Trumpers and just going down the rabbit hole. I totally get that its exhausting to argue or try to push them to think about the shit they are saying, but its the only thing I can think of that MIGHT help
Does being intolerant of intolerance actually work though?
Note: I’m not being tolerant of their views, im challenging them constantly on them in a constructive way (at least to me). It doesn’t generally go over well, but it has helped seemingly to treat them with respect and to do active listening and challenge that by making them actually feel like you’ve heard them.
Well it seems to “work” in that they will be isolated, but id argue it also is counter productive because it helps them grow their isolated communities by playing the victim. However it is probably less counterproductive then trying to engage with them, which is both pointless and a waste of time.
I think its not pointless. Many people are not intentionally this way, they’ve just fallen for propaganda.
I was one of those people, but because I had a good friend at a job who didn’t judge me and gave me a more informed and alternate viewpoint, it really changed my mind on a lot of things.
There are some people who might honestly be open to having a true discussion, and that’s the first step to changing minds I think.
I have had better luck where instead of trying to prove someone wrong, I make them just say their opinion out loud and explain it very clearly for me. Some people realize how shallow their views and knowledge are when you do this for them