White House threatens to veto anti-EV bill just passed by US House::The bill would prevent the EPA from enforcing tougher new pollution standards.
White House threatens to veto anti-EV bill just passed by US House::The bill would prevent the EPA from enforcing tougher new pollution standards.
Lol. No. I just know more and have more experience about both vehicles and batteries than almost anyone else that would be on here.
So why don’t you go ahead and explain in your own words why an all electric vehicle built today is going to save the environment. Explain how a vehicle that will only last 15 years before needing to be scrapped or has to have $10,000 thrown at it is better. Explain how all the extra rubber and tire pollution from wearing out 15 to 20 percent faster due to all the extra weight, is going to save the environment. Explain how one country putting up 5% less cO2 is going to slow global warming.
EV will be great after batteries move beyond the li-pos and more of the US is on wind and solar. Right now though, straight EVs are shit.
Count all the maintenance you would be spending on an ICE over that same time period. Oil changes, spark plugs, coolant. Brakes also have less wear on EVs due to regen braking. It’s too the point where they may last the life of the vehicle.
Ever look at the suggested maintenance schedule for an EV? Dealerships do, and it’s part of why they’re aggressively lobbying the government to keep ICEs on the road longer.
Largely overblown, and also solvable in time. Based on how long humans can go without a food and piss break, plus some padding for 80% charge time and cold weather, there isn’t much point to an EV with more than about 400 miles of range–and this is a very high end estimate. Past that, any further improvements in battery tech can be used to reduce weight. There are EVs on the market that are almost there already.
I don’t know where you’re getting that. Transportation is 28% of US CO2 emissions.
So in your mind, we can’t do more than one thing at a time? We can’t have EVs until we have renewable power, and presumably an extensive charging network?
Its a classic argument a lot of Americans love to make about anything they hate “If it cant be absolutely, positively, flawlessly perfect immediately upon launch, then we should never use it even if its infinitely superior to what we already have”
Progress? Investment over time? What are you talking about. /s
I love this.
Plugs are once every 100,000 miles well call it three times in 15 years.
EVs have coolant and it also needs replaced (lol)
Brakes do need changed less. Maybe 2 times over 15 years as opposed to 4 times. Like spark plugs, brakes are cheap. You know what isn’t cheap? The $2,500 inverter that makes the regen work on your ev. Better hope that doesn’t go out. Oops, that $2,500 isn’t including labor. Maybe you can do it yourself.
You got me on oil. Over 15 years there’d be 30 or 40 oil changes. Somewhere around $1,200 total.
Now be sure to add the things in that go out more often on evs. Shocks, struts, tires, tie rods, ball joints…oh, and that insurance on EVs is more expensive. The insurance alone more than offsets the $1,200 for oil changes. Then with tires costing about $700 a set to have mounted I’d sure hate having to do that 15% more often. And that rubber pollution is bad stuff. I just read an article last year about how badly it was harming fish. Ah well. Fuck em, right?
The heat levels of that coolant is far less than in an ICE. It rarely needs replacing. Occasional topping up. A lot of EV maintenance schedules never bother with it.
https://www.progressive.com/answers/car-insurance-electric-vehicles/
“However, it’s important to note that, while electric vehicles are currently far from the cheapest cars to insure — as they become more commonplace, and the availability of parts and qualified repair shops grows — the cost to fix them should go down, as should electric car insurance rates”
Again, nothing that can’t be solved in time.
Compared to the pollution output of an ICE? Really? You found one thing that polluted more and ran with it without considering anything else or how it would be solved.
In the future, evs will have better batteries, which has been my entire point. This is now, and now, evs are more expensive to insure.
You don’t replace coolant because it stops cooling or looses it’s ability to not freeze. It lubricates less effectively and can slowly start to pick up electrical currents over long periods of time. So you still need to change it. If you want to have that one over an ice vehicle though, then I guess “oh noooo. I have to spend $25 every 7 years and replace my radiator fluid”
Tires are less about pollution to me and more about the cost, but either way, you only brought it up because you wanted to complain about me pointing it out, and it being true, and how dare I bring up something true? Whatever, man. You think you’re part of this big thing to help the environment, but really you’re just naive and jumping on a bandwagon that’s forcing something before it’s actually going to be beneficial. Most every ev built today is going to be a net loss on the environment. We need clean energy first, then battery tech for EV’s (this may be just a few years away if a couple different auto manufacturers aren’t blowing smoke about their solid state batteries) and we need a charging infrastructure.
No, cole, that is horseshit and you know it. Coolant contamination is a result of extremes in temperature, same with oil breakdown. Because EVs are not heat engines, whose efficiency directly correlates to the Carnot cycle’s rules, they are inherently more efficient. Stop spreading misinformation and pretending to be an engineer.
People don’t have to buy an EV, it is their option. It has much lower TCO, and your point about “better hope the inverter doesn’t go out…”, makes me wonder if you know what exactly goes wrong with them by way of actually knowing how they work.
At any stage in history, the introduction of a new technology tends to be initially inefficient. Time resolves this kind of thing, see the much more energy efficient processor in the phone you spout drivel from vs an older model. Same lithium polymer batteries, not necessarily the same capacity, but much more advanced switching and software techniques to make the energy go much farther.
Get educated before you go sucking off the oil industry under the hilariously thin guise of “EVs aren’t ready yet!”.
There you go. You keep talking about things being cheaper “in the future”. Well you don’t live in the future, buddy. EVs have been here for over a decade and they’ve only gotten more expensive to replace batteries in. Not less, and unlike many other bits of tech, this has a finite and predictable lifespan that is too short and too expensive for something that currently does too little to help the environment. The government forcing their sale right now is a dumb move.
Source your falsehoods, half wit.
Everything but the battery is lower cost than it used to be. Lightweight cast or semi-monocoque construction, better purity silicon for lower resistance igbts & MOSFETs, not to mention very high speed switching configurations, a big deal that your low-quality ass isn’t even aware of.
The motors have about 6 -15 parts nominally, at the upper end solely if they’re liquid cooled.
I’m an engineer, and I’m calling you a liar in front of everyone. What the fuck are you going to do about it?
I’m thahalf wit, and you think some voltage regulators and better silicone make batteries never degrade, while every source available acknowledges a 1200 to 2000 cycle lifespan of ev batteries. You’re a riot.
On the oil you are forgetting the externality it too poses. The oil needs to be disposed of. In addition to the externalities of the logistics of gas (gas stations, fuel deliveries, leaking Underground storage). There is a lot of these in the fuel process, from drilling oil all the way through the process.
Motor oil doesn’t get disposed of. It just gets recycled, for the most part.
Good point, just read some more on that. Seems like the bulk is refined to be used in boiler furnaces and burned. A small part is reused, and then the final leftovers are so horrible they are disposed of in controversial ways.
But I must admit I thought it was all just burned outright. I have not been able to find numbers on what percentage is recycled and burned and what part is just burned, calling it recycling which is technically correct (the best kind of correct) but not what most people think of when they hear recycling.
Explain how oil is going to save the environment
Never said it would.
I’d be interested in knowing how you’ve got more experience and knowledge about EVs, if you could share. There’s a lot of misinformation out there but I’m open to hearing about your credentials. We always hear about “gasoline powered cars putting X tons of pollution into the air” but no one I’ve heard mentions replacing the batteries on an EV. I don’t think the general public really even thinks about it. I’d love to know more.
I’ve rebuilt ev batteries before, I do all my own automotive work and repairs, I’ve kept close eyes on the emerging battery tech for vehicles and know the battery chemistry used in current and older EV’s and own stocks in two different battery companies (any idiot can own stock, but I just mention it to say I have money on the line in paying attention to batteries. I keep a fairly tight portfolio). I’ve been working on electronics for 30 years and vehicles for over 20 years.
I’m not outstanding or anything, but that still puts me in a pretty narrow demographic on Lemmy, and evs are a subject of interest to me, while my job grants me a lot of free time to do what I want, which is often reading about things.
So the deal with the batteries: there’s been a handful of different types of ev batteries used over the past 15 years. Some lithium iron phosphate, some nickel metal hydride, some lithium, or nickel Cobalt aluminum.
Each has some positives and negatives but the overreaching delima with any of these is that they all need a lot of small individual cells to make up the entire battery pack (teslas can have 2,800 batteries all tied together to make their battery pack, for instance) and they all suffer from being charged/discharged. At current, lithium based batteries (most all of the newer EV’s) can last about 1500 full charge/discharge cycles before failure. But every single charge/discharge cycle does a small amount of damage in the formation of what is called dendrites. Dendrites rob a battery of capacity and eventually will short out the battery cell, making it go completely bad.
The damage to the batteries is worse at times of full charge and full discharge. And is lessened if kept in between. EVs use this to their advantage and will cut your vehicles power off showing 0%, even though there’s capacity left in the batteries to go several more miles, and “100% fully charged” when plugged in, will actually be only around 90% of the batteries max capacity. If you owned an EV and kept it between about 30% and 80% the entire time, and avoided fast charging, which also makes batteries go bad faster, your battery should last longer than most anyone else’s.
But anyhow, every battery used in an electric only vehicle today is 100% fact going to lose a bit of max range with every single charge, because every single charge causes a slight amount of build-up/damage to the batteries inside. Aside from that, no manufacturing process for those batteries is perfect, so not all of those hundreds or thousands of battery cells that make up the ev battery are perfectly the same, so they won’t all start to go bad a once. Once enough of those cells go completely bad (today’s evs track the cells and can compensate for the bad ones for a while) your battery, all 1,200 to 2,000 pounds of it will need to be replaced, and replacing them with a used/refurbished battery pack is a temporary bandaid after paying a large labor cost, or a new battery pack which will cost you more than what you would expect to pay for an entire 10 year old used car.
Manufacturers (and real world info as all electric evs are starting to get pretty old) expect the batteries to last 10 to 20 years. It’s looking like that’s a pretty good estimate. 20 years being a stretch, but doable for someone who slow charges at home , only charges to 80%, and doesn’t take trips that take them down too low on charge.
To give you an idea of how well auto manufacturers are aware of this, just look at a Ford mustang mach e. The most popular ev after tesla. They have a 8 year or 100,000 mile warranty on the battery. The mach e has a claimed range of 290 miles. Their warranty doesn’t take effect unless the battery capacity is less than 70% of what it was when new. Imagine having a car you paid $50,000 for, expected to get 290 miles with, and then 4 years later with 95,000 miles on it you can only go 210 miles and ford tells you to go kick rocks. Currently, that battery pack is about $23,000 dollars(most batteries arent this stupid high). Plus install. I just got rid of a mini van that was supposed to get 22 mpg. It was 16 years old, had 245,000 miles on it, and it still got 22 mpg. It was also still worth something. How much will a 16 year old EV that needs a $12,000 battery to work again be worth? Pretty much nothing after people learn how expensive and how guaranteed it is that they’ll need to have a new battery. I wouldn’t spend $12,000 on most 15 year old vehicles that are in great condition. The thought of paying to get a 15 year old vehicles that would still need a battery put in it is asinine.
Yeah, I hope recycling and repair on old battery pacts gets some more research. I feel like anyone that can shorten that loop has some good money to squeeze in the future.
On the 12000 for a old minivan, I feel like that’s just future were heading for regardless of EV or not. I will say, and as a guy who hates working with electrical harnesses, I would rather get a 15 year electric drive train than a gas one myself. Having worked on both they are definitely easier to figure out what’s wrong!
Yeah, but parts are usually cheaper on the ice by far. If the motor of an ev goes out, you’re pretty much just stuck replacing it completely.
Depends on what’s wrong with a motor. If you might as well rewind it, at least personally, yeah it’s not worth trying to fix, but if it’s just a bearing or loose connection it’s not too bad.
A wasn’t considering a lose connection or a wire short to be a motor issue, but there’s no way anyone is going to do a great job of re-winding the motor of an EV. Have you seen those stater windings?! They’re way too close together and too precise to do by hand. I’d be willing to bet those machines that do it cost about as much as my house, too.
For sure! Heck I’ve hand wound like twice in my life and I would have to have adamn good reason to do it again for even a simple piddly thing.
The honda insight community would like to have a word with you lol
Lol. Why is that? As mentioned by me somewhere in this thread, I’m a fan of hybrids. Great gas mileage and the small batteries are easy and much more affordable to replace.
One country?