Wherever you got that 500k number from, get rid of that as a source. It is wrong by several orders of magnitude. Since 2010 it’s 4,882.

Which of course is still 4,882 too many.

The only ethnic cleansing in Gaza was when all Jews were removed in 2005. It is not being ethnically cleansed of Gazans. I am not “justifying ethnic cleansing” in talking about the role Palestinian militants play in these deaths.

What I am trying to get through here is that Palestinian militants are complicit in and exploit these deaths because - until the barbaric rampage last Saturday - these deaths have the militants’ most effective weapon against Israel. They provoke Israel, Israel responds, civilians die, militants continue. When they take a break from provoking, Israel stops too. This is consistent. It’s observable over and over and over again, except it doesn’t become news until Israel responds.

Hamas’ provocation last weekend was so extreme the world sat up and noticed. Israel is responding. It’s the same pattern. You’ve now seen it yourself. It is still true that if Palestine lays down their weapons, there will be no more war; but if Israel lays down theirs, there will be no more Israel.

So back to my question to you, how do you propose to contain Hamas without harming civilians?

If you don’t have an answer, don’t fall back on your old IsraelBad tropes or attacks on me. Recognise that it is an impossible line for anyone to walk. Hamas, who very intentionally embed themselves in civilian centres for the precise reason that attacking them means killing civilians, cannot be contained without harming civilians. That’s not justifying or excusing their deaths at all. I am recognising the reality on the ground which must be dealt with.

You’ve made up a whole hell of a lot that I DIDN’T SAY.

So you’re way to counter an impossible situation peacefully is to make up crap about me, list things Israel’s done and hasn’t done (cause some of what you’re citing is jihadi propaganda and make up complete shite about genocide. Yes Israel could wipe Gaza out entirely. They haven’t.

They haven’t.

Israel is in an impossible situation. They contribute to it, but they didn’t create it. ISRAEL CANNOT SOLVE IT ALONE. Any attempt to do so is considered by Palestinian militants a sign of weakness to be exploited. That’s the reality. Deal with it.

But oh no, put all the fucking blame on Israel for not managing to walk an impossible line in an impossible situation.

Yep. It’s a double edged sword. It sucks. Absolutely sucks.

It also feeds militant goals for war and chaos and hampers everyone’s efforts towards peace. It’s an impossible line for Israel to walk. But you all would rather blame Israel than the militants 🤦

Oh fucking hell. Anything to hang Arab militancy - which has existed since before Israel re-emerged as a modern state - on Israel, eh?

So PRECISELY how does Israel starve Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, and that long history of anti-Jewish militancy? Stop existing? Jump into the sea? That would do it, if the land were finally Judenrein 🙄. Gazans in general might be open to a real resolution to the conflict which accepts the existence of Israel as a Jewish state but their leadership isn’t. How do we remove dictators like Hamas from power? They’re not going to go of their own accord. Israel showing perceived weakness emboldens them. Israel taking steps to reduce terrorism is condemned. It’s an impossible situation and Palestinian militancy thrives on it.

Don’t give me meaningless platitudes that are nothing more than substance-free word play. Deal with the complexity of the reality.

Yeah, it’s pretty shitty inside Gaza for some people. (There are also luxury shopping malls and much wealth. Vloggers share that part of it on Arabic-language social media, quite different from the idea of universal poverty presented on European-language social media.)

Israel can’t force the PA or Hamas to distribute aid money evenly. They can’t force Hamas to run the Gazan economy better. Israel does not have all the power here.

Militants use the concrete to build underground bunkers for themselves and tunnels into Israel. If they didn’t do that, there wouldn’t be a restriction on the amount of concrete allowed in. Israel isn’t limiting it to be cruel or pissy. Every restriction is an attempt to reduce violence and terrorism.

When militants destroy infrastructure for bringing electricity, water and other supplies in, Israel rebuilds it. The siege is horrible. I do not deny that at all. But Hamas only listens to force. Signs of perceived weakness (including Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005) are taken as a signal to increase attacks, that the infidel opponent is weak and can be destroyed. Hamas is so emboldened by what they “achieved” Saturday, of how weak they made Israel, they’re not going to stop until they are forced to. Why is this aspect of their militancy so hard for westerners to see?

Israel has to show itself as stronger than Hamas. Absorbing the losses without offensive reaction will lead to more and more and more death and violence. If only this weren’t the case, but Israel has to deal with the reality of militant thinking. They don’t have the luxury of internet sophistry like we do. I don’t know how anyone could possibly handle this in terms Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, Iran et al will understand which also keeps civilian Gazans safe.

That, and it is an absolute tragedy, is part of how the militants work. They will sacrifice civilians, celebrate them as martyrs and exploit their deaths and suffering as part of their war to eradicate Israel and bring the entirety of the land - river to sea, not just Gaza, not just West Bank - under sharia law.

Their role in all of this MUST be understood.

So you don’t grasp WHY the blockades are in place then? How graphic do I need to get in explaining that they are there to reduce terrorist incursions into Israel and to reduce militants’ missile capability. You have seen what militants do when they breach that border, and yet you want that border open?!?!?

Israel’s withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an empty gesture. It was a unilateral move towards peace which was violently rejected by Gazans. That part of it doesn’t fit your IsraelBad narrative but it’s vital to understanding the full picture. You have the luxury of ignoring it. You will still be safe. Israelis don’t have that luxury. Palestinian terrorists make sure they can’t forget.

Do you honestly think Hamas and the other militant groups have no power in this at all? Ok, so maybe you aren’t aware of how shitty Hamas is in running Gaza, how much aid money Hamas’ leadership skims off for their own wealth, how they keep some Gazans in poverty so they can be exploited in anti-Israel PR, their whole cult of martyrdom and jihad.

But now you’ve seen how little Hamas cares for human lives. You cannot deny the immense ruthless barbarity of their actions Saturday. They will sacrifice Gazan lives too, because, until the slaughtering rampage last weekend, that is and always has been their most effective weapon against Israel. Hamas, PIJ, Muslim Brotherhood, they will sacrifice civilian Gazans, celebrate them as martyrs and keep on doing it.

How the eff do you counter that peacefully? Please tell me, cause I would love to know.

It would be so lovely if it were possible to open up Gaza whilst still containing Hamas. Do you have a proposal for how to do that? Don’t forget the containing Hamas part. You might not want to accept it but you’ve seen what Hamas will do if they have free access to Israel.

We’ve all seen what happens when Hamas breaches the border now. That’s why the border and checkpoints are there.

Israel’s unilateral withdrawal from Gaza in 2005 wasn’t an “empty political gesture”. Far from it. So far from it.

It was met by violence. It was met by the rise of Hamas.

And now that Hamas have told you very clearly exactly who they are, believe them. I know you won’t listen to Jews, so look at the utter barbarity and scale of the atrocities Hamas carried out. Look at that honestly and listen to what Hamas is telling all of us about who they are.

Can you do that and still maintain they should have free run of Israel? They slaughtered 260 kids at a music festival for peace. Their charter calls for the slaughter of Jews OUTSIDE of Israel as well as within. And you want Israel to give them open access so they can fulfill it?

Israel unilaterally withdrew from Gaza in 2005. Olmert was working on a plan to withdraw from West Bank next.

If militant Palestinian leadership were willing to live in peace with Israel there would be peace. They’ve refused so many opportunities to become their own independent state because it requires allowing Israel to also exist in peace.

This just happened. It’s far too early to do more than speculate.

Like we can also connect dots from known things like FBI agents being killed because Trump leaked documents, his connections with Russia directly and thus Iran, to the possibility that information also leaked which compromised agents acting on Israel’s behalf within Gaza. To be clear, this is also speculation.

But yeah, we can create all sorts of scenarios based on bits of information and our biases and ways of looking at the world. We’ll never know everything which factored in.

Same-day delivery is such a recent expectation. To call it a “thing of the past” may be accurate as in “no longer available” but it’s also misleading with its unintentional implication of a longer history. If it was just a brief blip, we’ll manage just fine. Livable cities and a livable planet have to be our priority.

Meanwhile, the actual IHRA definition explictly states: “criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic”.

Once again, for the people who imagine it says something different: “criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic”.

Now if we’re talking and it comes out that I’m a Jew and you immediately shift to BUT ISRAEL, that’s racism. You likely understand this for say, Chinese people, right?

If you use antisemitic tropes in your criticism of Israel, those tropes are still antisemitic - whether you realise it or not. Making out it’s “just criticism of Israel” doesn’t erase the tropes of their antisemitism.

If you believe things which are rooted in antisemitism (and yes, a hell of a lot of stuff circulating on the internet which claims to be “just criticism of Israel” does have its roots in antisemitism), those things are still rooted in antisemitism even if you’re ignorant of those origins and are determined to stay in that ignorance.

And once again, the actual IHRA definition explictly states: “criticism of Israel similar to that leveled against any other country cannot be regarded as antisemitic”.

I have zero interest in spending that much time wading through crap just so I can have the personal decision to block it.

This one actually sounds credible. Or maybe I’m just hoping too hard for a friend.

ok, thanks. this is the kind of info i’m looking for. disappointed to hear but better to know.

Self-hosting on Mumble isn’t going to help me join existing communities on Discord, is it? I already have an over-abundance of opportunities to talk to myself ;P

I am careful that way. Thanks for this.

I don’t come anywhere near close to meeting the requirements for intentional communities. Chronic illness is a real bastard. I don’t need much and the quality of my life could so easily be improved by just a little help from others, but everyone - even intentional communities - is caught up in focusing on how much others can help them. What I can give is less tangible, and therefore dismissed.

I don’t want to abandon society but I do recognise we’d all be far better off if we lived in ways which were less isolating. Every person/family for themselves harms us all.

I’m generally in favour of casting the actor who can best get the non-physical elements right, like the character’s way of thinking and being in the world. So for any single example I’m open to arguments why that person was the right choice.

BUT there’s a larger issue also at play in which roles Jews are cast in. Generally speaking Jews get to play Jews when it’s a negative stereotype - think the loud, shrill, NYC Jewish woman trope, but when it’s a more positive character, those roles generally go to non-Jews. That’s the real problem.

My central and autonomic nervous systems. Mine are shite and have been since I was wee. Even a clean reinstall of the original operating system would likely help a ton, but if the open source community could go through the files and find the all the bugs, who knows what I could make of my life. At the very least I’d be able to work again.

Is anyone checking the AI “summariser” bot for accuracy? I’d rather not get misleading ideas in my head from a poor summary.