Co-signed by a Republican and a Democrat from Michigan, the proposed legislation would expand existing federal restrictions on connected cars from China.
The Chinese government is intentionally subsidizing, and incentivizing their car companies to over produce and under price vehicles, in an attempt to take over global clean energy tech. Just like when Amazon sold diapers at a loss for several years, once all the “competition” is gone they’ll either raise prices or use that leverage to gain more leverage in another sector. They’ve already done it with solar manufacturing. Batteries practically belong to them now. Vehicles are next.
Legislating against a hostile market takeover like this isn’t a bad thing. Biden knew it. That’s why he put on the 100% tariff on them to begin with. Other vehicles don’t suck they way people like to think they do. They just aren’t super cheep. China’s are so cheep because the Chinese government is paying for half the car.
Maybe US vehicles should be super cheap by having the US government pay for half the car. Oh wait, the sellers won’t reduce the prices, they will just siphon that discount up to the vulture class investors. Because US companies are fucking shit and don’t care about consumers.
That is why they lost. That is why everything in the US is going to shit, not just EVs. Because fucking everything is about MaXimUm pRoFitS for fucking useless “investors”
Then where are giant lots filled with millions of unsold vehicles like in China? They don’t exist, because the government isn’t guaranteeing the value of the cars mandating their production. Because they aren’t doing the same thing.
I think you’re bullshitting, Chinese evs are so cheap and plentiful because of hyper competition in their local market. They are cheap again because of extreme competition. China is better than the us at manufacturing and making things cheap, it’s a fact.
The U.S. government subsidizes the auto industry vastly more than china. It’s not some secret that you subsidize industries you want to thrive. The U.S. is just unable to compete, even without the subsidies (the tariffs at 100% still don’t bring Chinese car costs up enough to make American vehicles compete). And no, China isn’t paying half the cost. It’s like 10%. I am not going to bother looking up the source I’ve used in the past to argue with someone whose economic education involves the word “cheep”.
China isn’t paying half the cost. It’s like 10%. I am not going to bother looking up the source I’ve used in the past to argue
Can I beggar you to post the source? A lot of my opinion on the matter assumes they’ve been subsidizing it a lot more than 10 ish percent and some proof that isn’t the case would go a long way to swaying me.
$231B in Chinese subsidy, but that includes mining, battery production and incentives to replace ICE in China, along with proper charging infrastructure.
Yeah, I keep meaning to dig out a video I saw on youtube that breaks down how China manages to keep it’s labor costs so low. I feel like it needs to be a significant part of the discussion on this, but its also difficult to quantify the costs of restricting movement within your own borders.
This is the only article I could find on the topic that actually compares figures for both countries (almost all the articles I saw just mention a number for china and talk about their market share).
Not all subsidies are the same. US car subsidies are only about making the companies as happy and profitable as possible.
China doesn’t care about profits. Their subsides are explicitly about making the vehicles super cheep to undercut everyone else. Two entirely different motivations and results.
To gain global leverage on other nations. They’re looking to replace the US as THE next dominant nation in the world. They want power.
You seem to want me to say money. No. Money is nothing but a number in a spreadsheet to a nation with its own fiat currency. They don’t care about money. China isn’t a capitalist nation in the way we know it. They recognize that money is inherently meaningless. Resources are what matter. Control of resources is Real power.
Dude…. That’s literally what the U.S. is doing with their subsidies. Why the fuck do you think we sell fords in China, where they don’t care about trucks at all. That extension of power is literally exactly what the U.S. has done for a century, hence all the issues we’re seeing right now.
Then why do fancy Fords cost $80k and not $40k or less?
If the government is guaranteeing them money per-vehicle built, why aren’t there massive lots flooded with a millions of unsold Fords? That’s what’s happening in China.
Legislating against a hostile market takeover like this isn’t a bad thing.
I understand your point but your analogy would only work if Amazon were trying to convince the country that diapers were a sham, destroying the earth and inferior to swaddling your baby in poison ivy leaves.
I hope China continues to subsidize the fuck out of the cars and I hope the world starts buying them, Tesla goes under and my government is left trying to explain to their constituents how, exactly, petroleum fuel is still the only logical answer and then explains why we can’t have a Chinese-made EV like the rest of the world.
in an attempt to take over global clean energy tech.
Don’t look now, but that ship has sailed. They are the global leaders in that tech. We could have competed if the dolts that put our current administration didn’t lack the critical thought to realize they were being lied to about solar, wind and electric. Now, the only card the US can play is to try to block the smarter countries from competing.
I hope China continues to subsidize the fuck out of the cars and I hope the world starts buying them
You kinda have to hope they do. What happens when all the other manufactures are gone and Chinese companies start charging what the cars actually cost, or more? That’s what amazon did. Now everybody with a baby is forked.
Don’t look now, but that ship has sailed. They are the global leaders in that tech.
I said exactly as much. Their takeover of solar and batteries are more or less done. Vehicles are next. I’m sure they have other markets planed after that.
inferior to swaddling your baby in poison ivy leaves.
Fun fact: I’m not allergic to poison ivy. It was a pretty cool super power growing up.
Fun fact: I’m not allergic to poison ivy. It was a pretty cool super power growing up.
I think I got your allergy to it on top of mine. I’m so allergic, I got something called compartmentalization of the arm and almost lost it due to the reaction to poison ivy and not going to the doctor quickly enough as my arm swelled.
Your argument would carry sone gravitas if the US wasn’t doing the same thing subsidizing the US automobile industry, except in that case the industry became bloated, complacent and uncompetitive and needed even farther protection with moah tariffs
where as while the Chinese government subsidized for sure, they ended up building a cutting edge super competitive industry building vehicles the world wants.
The Ford, Toyota and Honda CEO have said the main reason is build quality, value, automaton and robotics, they can design and build a car in months and have hardly a person on the assembly line.
The Chinese government is intentionally subsidizing, and incentivizing their car companies to over produce and under price vehicles
Wow that doesn’t sound like anyone else I know. Nope. No other country does that. I’m so glad that our inferior products are being propped up so well. Yay America.
Not all subsidies are the same.
The US isn’t giving the car manufacturers money per car, to ensure they make as many as possible, and sell them as cheaply as possible. The US subsidies are just gifts the the auto makers for simply having factories and saying they are keeping the industry in the US. They don’t serve any greater goal.
Do we want the death of the car? Cars are useful. They have their place in the world.
We certainly want less of them in the middle of cities and small towns. But not zero, right?
Yes. US’ EV market nearly crashed because 90% of it was just Tesla. We don’t have the same scope as the rest of the world because US’ politicians are still drunk on petrol.
They were the majority of the market because they were first. They didn’t drive anyone out, because nobody was there. They proved the market existed. “Created” it so to speak. In the last several years they were loosing market share each year, because there was real competition. Musk going full Rump just accelerated that trend. it didn’t start it.
yeah it has nothing to do with the US wanting a monopoly on methods of spying on US citizens that bypass the constitution. it’s all just china being meanies.
Kinda. Yah. That has very little to do with anything. Everyone already buys and sells whatever data they want. It doesn’t matter much who collects it. It’ll be available to the US if they want it.
The Chinese government is intentionally subsidizing, and incentivizing their car companies to over produce and under price vehicles, in an attempt to take over global clean energy tech. Just like when Amazon sold diapers at a loss for several years, once all the “competition” is gone they’ll either raise prices or use that leverage to gain more leverage in another sector. They’ve already done it with solar manufacturing. Batteries practically belong to them now. Vehicles are next.
Legislating against a hostile market takeover like this isn’t a bad thing. Biden knew it. That’s why he put on the 100% tariff on them to begin with. Other vehicles don’t suck they way people like to think they do. They just aren’t super cheep. China’s are so cheep because the Chinese government is paying for half the car.
Maybe US vehicles should be super cheap by having the US government pay for half the car. Oh wait, the sellers won’t reduce the prices, they will just siphon that discount up to the vulture class investors. Because US companies are fucking shit and don’t care about consumers.
That is why they lost. That is why everything in the US is going to shit, not just EVs. Because fucking everything is about MaXimUm pRoFitS for fucking useless “investors”
Then where are giant lots filled with millions of unsold vehicles like in China? They don’t exist, because the government isn’t guaranteeing the value of the cars mandating their production. Because they aren’t doing the same thing.
I think you’re bullshitting, Chinese evs are so cheap and plentiful because of hyper competition in their local market. They are cheap again because of extreme competition. China is better than the us at manufacturing and making things cheap, it’s a fact.
The U.S. government subsidizes the auto industry vastly more than china. It’s not some secret that you subsidize industries you want to thrive. The U.S. is just unable to compete, even without the subsidies (the tariffs at 100% still don’t bring Chinese car costs up enough to make American vehicles compete). And no, China isn’t paying half the cost. It’s like 10%. I am not going to bother looking up the source I’ve used in the past to argue with someone whose economic education involves the word “cheep”.
$85 billion to Detroit since 2008.
Does that include bailouts from the 2008 recession? I feel like those bailouts would be a significant chunk of what the US Gov has subsidized them.
Can I beggar you to post the source? A lot of my opinion on the matter assumes they’ve been subsidizing it a lot more than 10 ish percent and some proof that isn’t the case would go a long way to swaying me.
$231B in Chinese subsidy, but that includes mining, battery production and incentives to replace ICE in China, along with proper charging infrastructure.
https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2024-06-21/china-s-ev-makers-got-231-billion-in-aid-over-last-15-years
Yeah, I keep meaning to dig out a video I saw on youtube that breaks down how China manages to keep it’s labor costs so low. I feel like it needs to be a significant part of the discussion on this, but its also difficult to quantify the costs of restricting movement within your own borders.
This is the only article I could find on the topic that actually compares figures for both countries (almost all the articles I saw just mention a number for china and talk about their market share).
Not all subsidies are the same. US car subsidies are only about making the companies as happy and profitable as possible.
China doesn’t care about profits. Their subsides are explicitly about making the vehicles super cheep to undercut everyone else. Two entirely different motivations and results.
Jesus dude
To undercut everyone else…… to accomplish what? Come on, you’re almost there.
To gain global leverage on other nations. They’re looking to replace the US as THE next dominant nation in the world. They want power.
You seem to want me to say money. No. Money is nothing but a number in a spreadsheet to a nation with its own fiat currency. They don’t care about money. China isn’t a capitalist nation in the way we know it. They recognize that money is inherently meaningless. Resources are what matter. Control of resources is Real power.
Dude…. That’s literally what the U.S. is doing with their subsidies. Why the fuck do you think we sell fords in China, where they don’t care about trucks at all. That extension of power is literally exactly what the U.S. has done for a century, hence all the issues we’re seeing right now.
Everyone get upset when China acts like the US, but without the military invasions.
Then why do fancy Fords cost $80k and not $40k or less?
If the government is guaranteeing them money per-vehicle built, why aren’t there massive lots flooded with a millions of unsold Fords? That’s what’s happening in China.
The US was replaced a decade ago.
I understand your point but your analogy would only work if Amazon were trying to convince the country that diapers were a sham, destroying the earth and inferior to swaddling your baby in poison ivy leaves.
I hope China continues to subsidize the fuck out of the cars and I hope the world starts buying them, Tesla goes under and my government is left trying to explain to their constituents how, exactly, petroleum fuel is still the only logical answer and then explains why we can’t have a Chinese-made EV like the rest of the world.
Don’t look now, but that ship has sailed. They are the global leaders in that tech. We could have competed if the dolts that put our current administration didn’t lack the critical thought to realize they were being lied to about solar, wind and electric. Now, the only card the US can play is to try to block the smarter countries from competing.
You kinda have to hope they do. What happens when all the other manufactures are gone and Chinese companies start charging what the cars actually cost, or more? That’s what amazon did. Now everybody with a baby is forked.
I said exactly as much. Their takeover of solar and batteries are more or less done. Vehicles are next. I’m sure they have other markets planed after that.
Fun fact: I’m not allergic to poison ivy. It was a pretty cool super power growing up.
I think I got your allergy to it on top of mine. I’m so allergic, I got something called compartmentalization of the arm and almost lost it due to the reaction to poison ivy and not going to the doctor quickly enough as my arm swelled.
Holey shit! That’s horrible. TIL Poison Ivy can be way worse than a terrible rash.
Okay bro, pack it up. You’ve fully lost.
Lost what?
Your argument would carry sone gravitas if the US wasn’t doing the same thing subsidizing the US automobile industry, except in that case the industry became bloated, complacent and uncompetitive and needed even farther protection with moah tariffs
where as while the Chinese government subsidized for sure, they ended up building a cutting edge super competitive industry building vehicles the world wants.
The Ford, Toyota and Honda CEO have said the main reason is build quality, value, automaton and robotics, they can design and build a car in months and have hardly a person on the assembly line.
https://moneywise.com/auto/auto/toyota-honda-ford-ceos-warning-china-portfolio
Read some of my replies. There a number of ways to do subsidies to promote different goals and outcomes.
Wow that doesn’t sound like anyone else I know. Nope. No other country does that. I’m so glad that our inferior products are being propped up so well. Yay America.
No they don’t. They aren’t cutting prices. They’re just maximizing profits. China is not the same.
…you don’t think the US auto industry is heavily subsidized? Like… really?
Not all subsidies are the same.
The US isn’t giving the car manufacturers money per car, to ensure they make as many as possible, and sell them as cheaply as possible. The US subsidies are just gifts the the auto makers for simply having factories and saying they are keeping the industry in the US. They don’t serve any greater goal.
If China wants to pay 25% of the price of my car to make it affordable for me, I’m down with that. It’s more than my government is doing for me.
What’ll you do when they start charging 50% more and there isn’t anyone else to buy from?
Celebrate the death of the car so we can all live in walkable cities and manifest that solarpunk future we all dream of.
Do we want the death of the car? Cars are useful. They have their place in the world.
We certainly want less of them in the middle of cities and small towns. But not zero, right?
The United States company is literally the hostile one here.
Remember Tesla?
Did Tesla sell cars below cost to drive out competitors and take over the market?
Tesla lost money it’s first 11 years and made billions in carbon credits and subsidies.
Nearly all buisness loose money before they ramp up enough volume. That doesn’t mean they sold vehicles below cost.
Yes. US’ EV market nearly crashed because 90% of it was just Tesla. We don’t have the same scope as the rest of the world because US’ politicians are still drunk on petrol.
No. They didn’t.
They were the majority of the market because they were first. They didn’t drive anyone out, because nobody was there. They proved the market existed. “Created” it so to speak. In the last several years they were loosing market share each year, because there was real competition. Musk going full Rump just accelerated that trend. it didn’t start it.
And thus almost tanked it when sales dried up. So it doesn’t matter what they cost.
I don’t know what you’re trying to say here. That’s not even what this is about. You’re way off topic.
I was just trying to throw in my two cents. Nothing else.
yeah it has nothing to do with the US wanting a monopoly on methods of spying on US citizens that bypass the constitution. it’s all just china being meanies.
Kinda. Yah. That has very little to do with anything. Everyone already buys and sells whatever data they want. It doesn’t matter much who collects it. It’ll be available to the US if they want it.