Lincoln commanded his soldiers to fight the Confederates to protect another evil: settler colonialism, i.e. the Union. He viewed an undivided
as the more stable version of the settler-colonial project.
Every President of
voluntarily helmed a white supremacist settler-colonial entity. There are no good Presidents, and there never will be, because Presidents are categorically monsters. Monsters don’t deserve monuments.
“Doesn’t matter, I’m still right because I have a whole other reason!”
I’m sure that’s also not the reason you don’t like it. But it doesn’t matter because, whatever anyone says you’ll have another excuse reason right behind that. Not worth playing that game.
Actually you haven’t. Under Lincoln’s presidency, the Union went on to nominally outlaw slavery — except as punishment for a crime. The 13th Amendment has been used to keep penal slavery illegal. Lincoln himself did not personally own slaves, but he was absolutely complicit as a President in maintaining the institution of slavery. So if not a literal slave owner, every President, as the figurehead of a massive institution of slavery, is a slaver by any reasonable definition.
I’m sure that’s also not the reason you don’t like it.
The reason I reject the monuments is because I am an outspoken anarchist and
is a shining beacon on a hill for everything anarchism identifies as wrong [1] about the world, therefore we shouldn’t celebrate people who lead it. Every other “excuse” is a special case of my disgust for systems of oppression and hierarchy.
[1] Edited from “I despise” to “anarchism identifies as wrong”, because it’s not about my personal preference, it’s about what these monuments represent, in particular the systems of domination they reinforce. My personal distaste for them is irrelevant to the argument. (Actually, my personal taste is even stronger: I don’t like any monuments, even for people I like, because hero worship is a cognitive distortion.)
Lincoln tricked racist northerners into dying in a war against the most heinous form of slavery the world has ever seen, and he still doesn’t pass your purity test. Fucking wild.
Lincoln tricked racist northerners into dying in a war against the most heinous form of slavery the world has ever seen
… to save a slave nation built on white supremacy and settler colonialism, which still enslaves Black people within its borders thanks to the 13th Amendment passed during his administration, because the slave nation was so fucking vile and unstable that even white supremacists had to fight against chattel slavery to keep their settler colonial empire from detonating itself.
Like this is literally how deep racism goes, that even the “white moderates” are all racist bastards. This is what happens when one makes white supremacy the foundation of an entire society: to the surprise of no one but you and every other settler apparently, you end up with a nation of white supremacists. Rejecting in all its hideous permutations (applies to too) is step zero in any serious solution for ending white supremacy. Otherwise, it’s a continuation of white supremacy under different management.
and he still doesn’t pass your purity test.
Yeah actually, the only purity test an President can ever pass is that he purely deserves to burn in Hell.
I think that slavers don’t deserve monuments […]
Lincoln himself did not personally own slaves, but [yada, yada, yada]
You’re just making a different shift here.
Shifting the definition of slaver, from one commonly understood usage, to your own personal version.
But that doesn’t even matter, as you admit that’s not the reason you don’t like it.
The reason you don’t like it, isn’t any rational practical reason. It’s an ideological dogmatism. A decree. Because you don’t like it, other’s shouldn’t be allowed to. Which is kind of funny coming from “an outspoken anarchist”.
Shifting the definition of slaver, from one commonly understood usage, to your own personal version.
I literally cited the dictionary definition. A slaver is any person involved in the slave trade.
The reason you don’t like it, isn’t any rational practical reason.
You literally don’t have to have a practical reason to like or not like stuff. Like I could’ve been like “I don’t like the monuments because they look like doo doo” and that is a legitimate aesthetic preference.
Because you don’t like it, other’s shouldn’t be allowed to.
When did I say that others should be banned from liking it? I just want people to understand what the thing they’re liking actually represents, which is the vile settler-colonial project.
Which is kind of funny coming from “an outspoken anarchist”.
I just want people to understand what the thing they’re liking actually represents,
It doesn’t actually represent anything. It’s a public pool.
You just imagine it represents something. Something specific to you.
Just as anyone else could imagine it represents anything else.
And what you really want, is to convince others your imagining is real. Because you believe it is. And since you can’t choose what you believe or don’t, all you can do is try to convince others to believe what you do.
It doesn’t actually represent anything. It’s a public pool.
What the fuck are you smoking and can I have some?
It’s literally called the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool. It obviously is a memorial to Lincoln. The National Mall is filled with monuments which are explicitly dedicated to memorializing various figures from history. We’re not debating this!
And what you really want, is to convince others your imagining is real.
Wow golly gee I must be a real fucking psycho to want to … convince people to think like I do. Goddamn, that’s some crazy shit.
Only a shit would be up their own ass enough to have a problem with trying to convince people to think differently.
I don’t have a problem with you.
As I said, you’re doing the only thing you can. I can’t fault you for that. Nothing I wrote was in anger, or meant to be combative. I expect that offline you’re a perfectly kind and decent person. I wish you all the best. Truly.
You are right. There is no debating the meaning behind things built by people who are long dead. Because as I said, what they mean to us today is whatever we want. It perfectly represents one thing to you, and another entirely different thing to me, and something neither of us imagined to someone else. There is no debate there.
The reflecting pool is part of the Lincoln Memorial.
Yes, that Lincoln. The one who freed the slaves.
…when it was politically convenient to do so to garner support for the war, especially from Britain.
— Abraham Lincoln
Lincoln commanded his soldiers to fight the Confederates to protect another evil: settler colonialism, i.e. the Union. He viewed an undivided
as the more stable version of the settler-colonial project.
Every President of
voluntarily helmed a white supremacist settler-colonial entity. There are no good Presidents, and there never will be, because Presidents are categorically monsters. Monsters don’t deserve monuments.
That’s called Shifting the Goalpost.
“I don’t like it for this reason!”
Shown that reason doesn’t apply.
“Doesn’t matter, I’m still right because I have a whole other reason!”
I’m sure that’s also not the reason you don’t like it. But it doesn’t matter because, whatever anyone says you’ll have another
excusereason right behind that. Not worth playing that game.Actually you haven’t. Under Lincoln’s presidency, the Union went on to nominally outlaw slavery — except as punishment for a crime. The 13th Amendment has been used to keep penal slavery illegal. Lincoln himself did not personally own slaves, but he was absolutely complicit as a President in maintaining the institution of slavery. So if not a literal slave owner, every President, as the figurehead of a massive institution of slavery, is a slaver by any reasonable definition.
The reason I reject the monuments is because I am an outspoken anarchist and
is a shining beacon on a hill for everything anarchism identifies as wrong [1] about the world, therefore we shouldn’t celebrate people who lead it. Every other “excuse” is a special case of my disgust for systems of oppression and hierarchy.
[1] Edited from “I despise” to “anarchism identifies as wrong”, because it’s not about my personal preference, it’s about what these monuments represent, in particular the systems of domination they reinforce. My personal distaste for them is irrelevant to the argument. (Actually, my personal taste is even stronger: I don’t like any monuments, even for people I like, because hero worship is a cognitive distortion.)
This is maybe the most absolutely deranged thing I have ever read.
Yeah it’s pretty deranged that he chose to do that, and it’s pretty deranged that you pretend like
hasn’t always been a slave nation.
Settler detected
Lincoln tricked racist northerners into dying in a war against the most heinous form of slavery the world has ever seen, and he still doesn’t pass your purity test. Fucking wild.
… to save a slave nation built on white supremacy and settler colonialism, which still enslaves Black people within its borders thanks to the 13th Amendment passed during his administration, because the slave nation was so fucking vile and unstable that even white supremacists had to fight against chattel slavery to keep their settler colonial empire from detonating itself.
Like this is literally how deep
racism goes, that even the “white moderates” are all racist bastards. This is what happens when one makes white supremacy the foundation of an entire society: to the surprise of no one but you and every other settler apparently, you end up with a nation of white supremacists. Rejecting 
in all its hideous permutations (applies to 
too) is step zero in any serious solution for ending white supremacy. Otherwise, it’s a continuation of white supremacy under different management.
Yeah actually, the only purity test an
President can ever pass is that he purely deserves to burn in Hell.
You’re just making a different shift here.
Shifting the definition of slaver, from one commonly understood usage, to your own personal version.
But that doesn’t even matter, as you admit that’s not the reason you don’t like it.
The reason you don’t like it, isn’t any rational practical reason. It’s an ideological dogmatism. A decree. Because you don’t like it, other’s shouldn’t be allowed to. Which is kind of funny coming from “an outspoken anarchist”.
I literally cited the dictionary definition. A slaver is any person involved in the slave trade.
You literally don’t have to have a practical reason to like or not like stuff. Like I could’ve been like “I don’t like the monuments because they look like doo doo” and that is a legitimate aesthetic preference.
When did I say that others should be banned from liking it? I just want people to understand what the thing they’re liking actually represents, which is the vile
settler-colonial project.
Yes because anarchism is when you have literally no opinions on anything ever and you let literally everything happen with absolutely no pushback whatsoever 🙄.
It doesn’t actually represent anything. It’s a public pool.
You just imagine it represents something. Something specific to you.
Just as anyone else could imagine it represents anything else.
And what you really want, is to convince others your imagining is real. Because you believe it is. And since you can’t choose what you believe or don’t, all you can do is try to convince others to believe what you do.
What the fuck are you smoking and can I have some?
It’s literally called the Lincoln Memorial Reflecting Pool. It obviously is a memorial to Lincoln. The National Mall is filled with monuments which are explicitly dedicated to memorializing various figures from
history. We’re not debating this!
Wow golly gee I must be a real fucking psycho to want to … convince people to think like I do. Goddamn, that’s some crazy shit.
Only a shit
would be up their own ass enough to have a problem with trying to convince people to think differently.
I don’t have a problem with you.
As I said, you’re doing the only thing you can. I can’t fault you for that. Nothing I wrote was in anger, or meant to be combative. I expect that offline you’re a perfectly kind and decent person. I wish you all the best. Truly.
You are right. There is no debating the meaning behind things built by people who are long dead. Because as I said, what they mean to us today is whatever we want. It perfectly represents one thing to you, and another entirely different thing to me, and something neither of us imagined to someone else. There is no debate there.