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If you’re saying that his size is what ultimately keeps him somewhere in the 11-20 range rather than being a top-10 guy in the league… are there people who legitimately argue that? You’re absolutely right imo
Depends. I feel like him and Murray are very similar players. If you switch him with Murray, Jokic hides his flaws, while you would say the same things about Murray in Cleveland.
How does Jokic hide thenfact thay Spida is undersized - which is mainly defect on defensive end? Giannis or Smart or someone like that hides those defects, not offensive juggernaut like Jokic. Jokic would do best with opposite of Spida.
“Just stick him next to Jokic” is becoming the new “Well, he can win a title with LeBron”.
Not that Jokic has had nearly as good a career as LeBron, but he currently seems to be at least equally valid as the answer to the question, “Who can run the league best offense with this flawed all-star?”
Just as a response to Jokic’s career so far, Jokic is less than a year older than LeBron was when they both won their first championship. Two MVP’s , really should be three, a historic postseason dominance, near averaging triple doubles for a season before that.
Not saying he has as close a chance at the same longevity, or even that Nuggets repeating is as sure a bet as the Heatles, but if there’s anyone in the league who can match that I’d bet on Jokic first, then Giannis, Luka if he can escape the Mavericks, or the potential dynasty leader in Sacramento in a few years.
Mitchell is a 4x all-star and all-nba level player. You’re overrating Jamal because he elevates his game in the playoffs and has the privilege of playing with a b2b mvp. He gets washed in the regular season. Here are the playoff stats.
Player 1: 28/5/5 on 55 TS%
Player 2: 25/5/6 on 59 TS%
Basically the same except one is significantly worse in the regular season.
Murray is a better defender than Donovan Mitchell. He’s more physical, tougher, and can hang on bigger guys on switches periodically. He also doesnt get caught out of position or on closeouts nearly as often as Mitchell does (just go watch the Dallas series again, or even the Knicks series last year - Donovan Mitchell is not a good defensive player. Jamal Murray is).
Jamal is also a better passer than Donovan Mitchell. He just averaged 10+ assists in the Finals against the consensus best coach in the NBA. Donovan has improved as a passer, but I would be FLOORED if he ever averaged 10 assists in a playoff series.
Also while wingspan in theory helps more with defense, I’d argue height is more important on offense as it allows you to see over opponents to make the right reads.
I don’t think “seeing over opponents” helps when it literally only applies to jokic. Every other great passer has been perfectly able to read defenses without seeing over them. Even LeBron isn’t “see over opponents” tall. Cp3, Stockton, Nash, rondo, wall, Westbrook all did just fine despite being the smallest guy in most lineups
LeBron is still taller than the average NBA player, and more to the point if he is being blitzed off a pick and roll, there is usually bound to be one short defender.
The point guards you listed are exceptional passers (first three have a claim to top 10 pg all time lists), and I’d argue Westbrook at 6’6" would have a better assist/turnover ratio than what he does now.
I don’t think Mitchell is a natural passer and that combined with his short stature limits his ability in this area. I think a good comp for Mitchell (in terms of passing ability) would be Kawhi. If Kawhi was closer to 6’ rather than his listed 6’7", I think his assists/to would be similar to Mitchell.
For sure, it that’s an effort/technique issue, not a size one. Mitchell isn’t actually that small for a 2 defensively, he’s long and strong for his height. He’s just a bad defensive player.
He’s not really a small player is the point. He’s built like a tank and has elite functional length, yet there are always complaints about his size apparently handicapping your backcourt whereas no one ever talks about Ja and Bane being a small backcourt.
Smaller guys can use length to play bigger. Donovan doesn’t do this. He is short and plays small. He’s also more of a 2, meaning he needs to play next to a playmaker to excel, despite needing the ball to be effective. Ja is small, roughly the same size as Dono, but he is the primary playmaker and ball handler for his team. Bane functions well without the ball and uses his strength extremely well. Replacing Bane, who is a solid four-ish inches taller than Dono and guards like he is, with Mitchell would make the Memphis backcourt significantly worse defensively. That’s how you know the size matters. Donovan is small and makes no effort to use the physical gifts he has to make up for it.
Thats very true of his Jazz seasons but to be fair to him he was a lot better in Cleveland. He still wasn’t good and the effort wasn’t always there but he was a lot more engaged and mostly executed the scheme and tried some to get over screens.
He is a funny player. His entire draft profile + early summer league profile was great defender right away but might not be able to score. Yet in the league hes been the exact opposite.
This is insane. I get what you’re suggesting but he was basically a first team all nba guy last year. It’s fine if he’s an undersized 2. He carried us to victory so many times last year.
If Mitchell was a genuine 6’3" and lived up to the defensive potential he had when drafted, then it wouldn’t be a problem. But he’s actually 6’1" and an average-to-poor defender, despite a major plus wingspan and dunk contest athleticism.
Eh he has the wingspan and athleticism to guard most 2 guards. Not saying he can be an all nba defender or anything but effort goes a long way. Guys like PJ Tucker are undersized and was a more than competent defender. Hell OKC ranked 13th in defensive rating last year despite not having a center all year
The Heat are a much better fit for him. Jimmy and Bam cover for him defensively, and Jimmy can be the primary ball handler. It allows Donovan to guard the 1 while still playing the 2 on offense. People have long wanted to pair him with a tall point guard, and Jimmy is a point forward so that’s even better for him.
As long as he has a better playoffs it’ll be fine. Mitchell was right on the cusp of being a first team all nba guard last year. He’s a guy you can count on to make it happen.
To put it in perspective as a cleveland fan, I don’t care about Cam Thomas at all. You put him in a trade and I skip right past that name in a Donovan Mitchell trade. He’s the filler (no offense, just trying to put this in a genuine perspective)
No offense taken it’s makes sense to me, nothing we have is equal to Donovan (that we’d be willing to trade) so I think it’s best to just throw y’all any and everything if it means we can add Spida to our core
If Donovan came to NY I’d honestly want RJ to move to the 6th man and have Hart start at the 3 since he’s a better defender and could help out Brunson and Donovan better, Grimes is too small to start at the 3 full time imo
I’ll be honest tho, idk how him and Brunson works as a backcourt.
Simple - 2 balls at the same time
Nobody wants to hear this but Donovan will always be a flawed player as an undersized 2.
not sure how anyone could deny it.
Put him next to Dyson Daniels
If you’re saying that his size is what ultimately keeps him somewhere in the 11-20 range rather than being a top-10 guy in the league… are there people who legitimately argue that? You’re absolutely right imo
I’m just happy I don’t need to pretend anymore lol
offseason? You mean postseason, right?
No off-season. This thread is discussing pro am golf tourneys ediot
Depends. I feel like him and Murray are very similar players. If you switch him with Murray, Jokic hides his flaws, while you would say the same things about Murray in Cleveland.
How does Jokic hide thenfact thay Spida is undersized - which is mainly defect on defensive end? Giannis or Smart or someone like that hides those defects, not offensive juggernaut like Jokic. Jokic would do best with opposite of Spida.
“Just stick him next to Jokic” is becoming the new “Well, he can win a title with LeBron”.
Not that Jokic has had nearly as good a career as LeBron, but he currently seems to be at least equally valid as the answer to the question, “Who can run the league best offense with this flawed all-star?”
Just as a response to Jokic’s career so far, Jokic is less than a year older than LeBron was when they both won their first championship. Two MVP’s , really should be three, a historic postseason dominance, near averaging triple doubles for a season before that.
Not saying he has as close a chance at the same longevity, or even that Nuggets repeating is as sure a bet as the Heatles, but if there’s anyone in the league who can match that I’d bet on Jokic first, then Giannis, Luka if he can escape the Mavericks, or the potential dynasty leader in Sacramento in a few years.
Mitchell also way better than Jamal lol
“way better” is either a troll statement or genuine delusion.
Mitchell is a 4x all-star and all-nba level player. You’re overrating Jamal because he elevates his game in the playoffs and has the privilege of playing with a b2b mvp. He gets washed in the regular season. Here are the playoff stats.
Player 1: 28/5/5 on 55 TS%
Player 2: 25/5/6 on 59 TS%
Basically the same except one is significantly worse in the regular season.
id 100% take donovan mitchel over murray for sure, still salty we fuckin traded him for mudiay
Murray is a better defender than Donovan Mitchell. He’s more physical, tougher, and can hang on bigger guys on switches periodically. He also doesnt get caught out of position or on closeouts nearly as often as Mitchell does (just go watch the Dallas series again, or even the Knicks series last year - Donovan Mitchell is not a good defensive player. Jamal Murray is).
Jamal is also a better passer than Donovan Mitchell. He just averaged 10+ assists in the Finals against the consensus best coach in the NBA. Donovan has improved as a passer, but I would be FLOORED if he ever averaged 10 assists in a playoff series.
Murray’s a point guard tho
Also it’s like we forget Murray has a great moveset to use in the playoffs.
Donovan not so much
sort of, his playmaking is mid but this season looks promising as hell
Murray is a vastly better defender, no?
Well ya, being a 6’1 shooting guard is not ideal.
I’d rather be a 6’1" shooting guard with a 6’9" wingspan like Mitchell instead of a 6’4" shooting guard with a 6’3" wingspan like Desmond Bane.
Bane is 6’5 with a 6’4 wingspan
wow that changes everything. in shoes or barefoot?
I keep saying to people that extending a forehead higher does little to benefit anyone
Except Mitchell doesn’t use his wingspan for defense, at all
Also while wingspan in theory helps more with defense, I’d argue height is more important on offense as it allows you to see over opponents to make the right reads.
I don’t think “seeing over opponents” helps when it literally only applies to jokic. Every other great passer has been perfectly able to read defenses without seeing over them. Even LeBron isn’t “see over opponents” tall. Cp3, Stockton, Nash, rondo, wall, Westbrook all did just fine despite being the smallest guy in most lineups
LeBron is still taller than the average NBA player, and more to the point if he is being blitzed off a pick and roll, there is usually bound to be one short defender.
The point guards you listed are exceptional passers (first three have a claim to top 10 pg all time lists), and I’d argue Westbrook at 6’6" would have a better assist/turnover ratio than what he does now.
I don’t think Mitchell is a natural passer and that combined with his short stature limits his ability in this area. I think a good comp for Mitchell (in terms of passing ability) would be Kawhi. If Kawhi was closer to 6’ rather than his listed 6’7", I think his assists/to would be similar to Mitchell.
For sure, it that’s an effort/technique issue, not a size one. Mitchell isn’t actually that small for a 2 defensively, he’s long and strong for his height. He’s just a bad defensive player.
He’s not really a small player is the point. He’s built like a tank and has elite functional length, yet there are always complaints about his size apparently handicapping your backcourt whereas no one ever talks about Ja and Bane being a small backcourt.
Smaller guys can use length to play bigger. Donovan doesn’t do this. He is short and plays small. He’s also more of a 2, meaning he needs to play next to a playmaker to excel, despite needing the ball to be effective. Ja is small, roughly the same size as Dono, but he is the primary playmaker and ball handler for his team. Bane functions well without the ball and uses his strength extremely well. Replacing Bane, who is a solid four-ish inches taller than Dono and guards like he is, with Mitchell would make the Memphis backcourt significantly worse defensively. That’s how you know the size matters. Donovan is small and makes no effort to use the physical gifts he has to make up for it.
Thats very true of his Jazz seasons but to be fair to him he was a lot better in Cleveland. He still wasn’t good and the effort wasn’t always there but he was a lot more engaged and mostly executed the scheme and tried some to get over screens.
He is a funny player. His entire draft profile + early summer league profile was great defender right away but might not be able to score. Yet in the league hes been the exact opposite.
This is insane. I get what you’re suggesting but he was basically a first team all nba guy last year. It’s fine if he’s an undersized 2. He carried us to victory so many times last year.
Dame and CJ just need defenders around them…
This subreddit is obsessed with shitting on 2s if they’re not 6’6 or something.
Maybe because that’s around the average size of a shooting guard?
Maybe because that’s not what wins playoff games??
If Mitchell was a genuine 6’3" and lived up to the defensive potential he had when drafted, then it wouldn’t be a problem. But he’s actually 6’1" and an average-to-poor defender, despite a major plus wingspan and dunk contest athleticism.
Eh he has the wingspan and athleticism to guard most 2 guards. Not saying he can be an all nba defender or anything but effort goes a long way. Guys like PJ Tucker are undersized and was a more than competent defender. Hell OKC ranked 13th in defensive rating last year despite not having a center all year
Hopefully we’ll never have to find out
Agree. Mitchell is for sure better than Brunson, but not by miles, and they kind of occupy the same space.
For the Knicks maybe you just grab the asset and figure it out later, but agree the fit is suspect.
I don’t think it would. It would be a worse version of Dame and CJ
The Heat are a much better fit for him. Jimmy and Bam cover for him defensively, and Jimmy can be the primary ball handler. It allows Donovan to guard the 1 while still playing the 2 on offense. People have long wanted to pair him with a tall point guard, and Jimmy is a point forward so that’s even better for him.
As long as he has a better playoffs it’ll be fine. Mitchell was right on the cusp of being a first team all nba guard last year. He’s a guy you can count on to make it happen.
Wonder how Mitchell would fit next to Bridges instead
Now that is exciting… he has enough defenders on the perimeter to help him out in BK.
He could bring Ben back to life
Fringe playoff team, 1st rd exit
i think instead he should go to minnesota. think about it he has an elite rim defender in rudy gobert, great for the pnr and all
Surely the only way we pick someone like him up is through FA no?
The amount of important players we would have to give up to make the Cavs interested would make Don not interested.
It’s not like we have our own picks to throw at the problem to make up for a lopsided trade.
I’ve always wanted to see Mitchell and ben Simmons on the same team, they seem like the perfect compliments to each other .
I am also wondering this. We have room for an upgrade at guard but it rides on how ready Cam Thomas is to carry a major offensive role.
Bro it’s Donovan Mitchell.
He is not lmao
If Donovan was even 25% interested in Brooklyn then we gotta go all in, giving away Cam is the barest minimum
To put it in perspective as a cleveland fan, I don’t care about Cam Thomas at all. You put him in a trade and I skip right past that name in a Donovan Mitchell trade. He’s the filler (no offense, just trying to put this in a genuine perspective)
No offense taken it’s makes sense to me, nothing we have is equal to Donovan (that we’d be willing to trade) so I think it’s best to just throw y’all any and everything if it means we can add Spida to our core
His offense alone alleviates our biggest problem
If Donovan came to NY I’d honestly want RJ to move to the 6th man and have Hart start at the 3 since he’s a better defender and could help out Brunson and Donovan better, Grimes is too small to start at the 3 full time imo
Starting 3 people under 6’4 always works, we never had issues with it or anything
Rumor is the sixers are trying to get him as well and I feel the same way about a Mitchell/Maxey backcourt. Defense would be so bad