The guy is white. When do we start hearing something about “mental health care” that nobody will do anything about?
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Well, at least the two of us aren’t okay with this. I’m not desensitized to it. And I never will be. I don’t accept this as “just the way it is now”.
Sure they will. The millions of children who went to school each day knowing they were the target of domestic terrorists and were not just sold out by Republicans and the gun lobby but spat on by the pro-gun crowd.
They’ll abolish the second amendment, condemning it to the history books with all the other shitty things America did like the genocide of the native population and the enslavement of black people.
The highest percentage turnout of 18-29 year olds in the 2022 election cycle was in Michigan and only 36% of them voted with abortion rights on the ballot.
They’re going to have to turn out in higher numbers across the states to do anything like what you’re suggesting.
Kick any dog enough and it’ll bite.
Whoa whoa whoa. We haven’t even gotten to thoughts and prayers. Then comes mental health. Last is the “it’s too soon to talk about this”. Then the cycle starts anew.
yes please send me some of those please
To be fair, the guy did actually self checkin to a mental facility this summer for two weeks and was released. Additionally, Maine is a yellow flag state where firearms can be taken away via a mental health review. (To be clear, this is NOT enough in my opinion).
One of many sources https://www.newsnationnow.com/us-news/northeast/ap-police-say-theres-an-active-shooter-in-lewiston-maine-and-they-are-investigating-multiple-scenes/
When I searched to see if Maine had red flag laws, all the top results were people opposed to them.
There’s a good chance the shooter was one of them, since it looks like he is a “responsible gun owner” that’s even more “responsible” than most.
Of course, the pro-gun crowd will seethe if you call him that, but the reality is that he had their full support when he bought a semi-automatic weapon. He still had it when he started hearing voices. He still had it when he started prowling the streets in open carry. Fuck, they probably would have given him the benefit of the doubt when he raised it to fire on an innocent person, as long as he was staunch Republican.
But the moment he pulled the trigger, it becomes “Oh that guy? Yeah he was never one of us. Doesn’t count”.
Then they’ll claim its a mental health problem because he had mental health issues and the gun he used to maximise the number of people he killed and wounded had nothing to do with it.
Then they’ll insist that they’ll totally entertain the idea of gun control after a mental healthcare system is built that can cure every single man, woman and child in America of serious mental health problems, even the ones that don’t want care, so completely they can be trusted with guns for the rest of their lives because they’ll never falter and also fuck you we’re not paying for it.
He had mental healthcare.
He also had a legally purchased AR-15.
He legally did not. They ask you on the BG check if you have any mental health issues.
Tell me again how gun control laws would have stopped this?
Tell me again how gun control laws would have stopped this?
How about I detail all the ways he could have gotten a gun under your laws that you enable that are in effect right now?
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He bought the guns before he had mental health issues and red flag laws weren’t used because police are far-right and pro-gun and put cultish, bullshit ideology before people’s lives.
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He just lied or had someone else lie and the gun laws you’re rushing to the defense of completely failed to catch it because they’re hopelessly inadequate and designed to put lobby profits before people’s lives.
At this point, we’ve covered 80% of mass shooters so we’re looking good statistically.
- He took the legally purchased, poorly secured firearm of a “responsible gun owner” of a family member or friend because the pro-gun community staunchly insists that the “responsible” part of “responsible gun owner” is 100% optional and punishable only by the tutting of strangers on the internet.
Now we’ve covered over 90% of mass shooters, but most of these ones are children.
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He bought the gun in a private sale that didn’t require a background check because for some surreal reason, the pro-gun crowd is completely okay with that and fights the closing of the loophole.
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He bought a previously legally purchased, poorly secured, promptly stolen gun from a stranger, because illegal firearms don’t grow on trees, they’re endlessly (and profitably!) by millions of people like yourself.
Which covers 99% of mass shooters. Of course deep down, you already knew all of that didn’t you?
You’re just not allowed to admit it out loud, because the moment you admit that in fact yes, gun control could have stopped many of these clearly telegraphed attacks, you’d have to also admit that you pushed for the laws that killed those people.
So how about instead of me explaining “how gun control laws would have stopped this” over and over again, you go fuck yourself?
You’ve overthrown zero tyrants. You’ve done nothing to lower the crime rate. You’ve let “suicide with dad’s protect-my-family gun” become the number one cause of death for teenagers. You’ve insisted for 25 years that you have the answers and you’ve failed every single time.
Lol so no you don’t have any ideas on how more gun control would have stopped this…also hilarious that you bring up the police being far right…all the while wanting to disarm people lol yes please tell me how giving far right racist bullies Monopoly on force is a good thing.
Oh did you solve racism with your cool guns? Did you stop state violence?
Nope, of course you didn’t. You’re full of shit like always and minorities are safer in countries with gun control.
Just another day of the pro-gun crowd delivering on zero of their promises.
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A pretty simple how for that case would be to have a protected database where mental health professionals and institutions would report individuals with issues deemed worryng enough to bar from purchasing a gun. Then during the background check they would reference that db. If the person being checked is verified to be in that db fail the check. Maybe have some revaluation options or whatever but it’s not hard to imagine how reasonable laws that are actually enforced could actually help. The half baked laws that are half assed enforced and then held up as an example of any laws at all being fundamentally impossible just isn’t convincing.
This won’t work. Do you want more unmedicated people with guns?
People with mental health issues wouldn’t ever seek care if owning a firearm was linked to healthcare. Now we’re stigmatizing mental health treatment.
We want people to get care and be managed so they can live a normal life.
Yeah that’s an issue that I would anticipate as well but at least now we are exploring options and identifying what may or may not work and what the trade offs are rather than pretending that it’s an impossibility like Mario was doing.
Do you want more unmedicated people with guns?
If they wanted that, they’d do things like oppose red flag laws, insist background checks remained functionally optional, oppose effective waiting periods and oppose mandatory safe storage laws.
People with mental health issues wouldn’t ever seek care if owning a firearm was linked to healthcare.
Is “some people care more about their guns than the safety and mental health of themselves and their family” supposed to be an argument for the existing gun laws?
Now we’re stigmatizing mental health treatment.
Who exactly is “we” here?
The pro-gun community rushes to blame anyone but themselves, all the while seething with indignation that they get lumped in with people who murder their partners or kill as many children as they can, just because they bought the same guns, from the same stores, under the same systems, with the same requirements as the murderer.
But boy they’re not shy doing unto others.
Half the world population will experience mental health problems in their lifetime. If the 80% of mass murderers using legally purchased guns is a low enough figure to sweep under the rug, the fraction of a fraction of mentally ill people carrying out mass murders isn’t even a speck of dust.
This man received urgent mental healthcare, to the standard that modern healthcare can provide anywhere in the world. Then he killed 20 people and injured over a dozen more with his legal firearm.
If you’re so certain that mental healthcare is the answer, you can give up your guns until you finish building your perfect healthcare utopia. Maybe you could start with the military, since apparently you have to be mentally ill to kill someone with a gun.
Until then, the current gun laws are horrifically and demonstrably inadequate at keeping guns out of the hands of violent people, despite 25 years of pro-gun cultists insisting that they and they alone have the solutions.
This guy was barred from having a firearm already.
Are you sure you’re not confusing him with the previous mass shooter in Maine from 6 months ago?
I know they’re hard to keep track of when they happen every month but as far as I’ve been able to tell, 2 days ago this man was a “responsible gun owner” who wasn’t disarmed using the red flags laws (that the pro-gun crowd opposes) despite seeking urgent treatment for mental health problems (which the pro-gun crowd insists is the solution).
Naa this guy should have had his firearms pulled the second he was involuntarily committed. This is a failure of law enforcement once again.
" ‘No way to prevent this’ , says the only developed country where mass shootings happen regularly."
Do we know if he bought the gun before or after the mental health problems were diagnosed?
We don’t have many laws that will take the guns away after diagnosis, and worse, we seem to have a police force that’s not willing to enforce those laws when they do exist.
Even if he bought them before, involuntary commitment means Leos should be taking them…but as you just stated most LEOs don’t talk to each other or do what they need to be doing.
I think this is true: He had some from before and also bought a .308 sniper rifle after having mental issues. There’s a lot of info about this guy btw. He made threats to shoot up two different military national guard posts. He committed himself and asked for further treatment when he was being released. Oh, and I thought this was the typical veteran PTSD kind of issue. Actually no, he was trained but didn’t see combat. He was having some seriously mind-altering mental breakdowns. His guns were probably talking to him.
If you’re talking about ATF form 4473, it asks “have you ever been adjudicated as a mental detective, OR have you ever been committed to a mental institution”, not whether you have any mental health issues.
That form is also not a background check, that’s the NICS check, which is separate.
And that’s only at time of purchase, so I assume he bought the gun prior to being committed.
That form is part of what’s feed into the NICS, and even if he did buy them before. The second he was involuntarily committed he was supposed to have his firearms removed. The ATF and local LE should have been the ones to do so.
If only there were 194 other countries out there that don’t have this problem. Then we could have somewhere to look and see if maybe having a gun store on every corner is contributing to this problem.
There are 450+ million firearms in civ hands, if we had a gun problem you would know.
It’s almost like those programs don’t work, and we just need a total prohibition on guns 🤷
Clearly the best course is something that failed before and only keeps the criminals armed. Brilliant
How does everyone forget to use the “people will just do it anyway” argument for every other law. When do we legalize all drugs because people just do them anyway
Why stop at drugs? If we’re binning laws because people do them anyway, we can legalise rape, murder, DUI, even child slavery.
But maybe don’t give them any ideas – gun sales would sky-rocket and ultimately most pro-gun people are just simps to corporate interests.
I dunno. Seems like most developed nations have figured it out. What’s so special about the US?
How are the gun violence stats looking after 25 years of the pro-gun community insisting they have the solutions?
Should we plot them on a chart next to the profitability of the gun manufacturers?
Maybe your next solution could focus on tracking down that magic gun fairy that keeps giving guns to criminals, since they’re definitely not being supplied and enabled by responsible gun owners like yourself.
You completely misunderstood my point and can see my other response for clarity. While I’m on your side in general and think we need far more control, you are doing the movement a disservice by trying the “how are the numbers?” argument when it’s such a poor choice.
When you go look up your stats to prove me wrong, remember how the classifications work and that data can be spun. That way when you see gun violence overall is actually down and how single person handgun suicides and gang violence data is used to juice the numbers (both directions), you might understand there’s far better arguments for gun control. Be an ally, not a hindrance.
That way when you see gun violence overall is actually down and how single person handgun suicides and gang violence data is used to juice the numbers (both directions), you might understand there’s far better arguments for gun control.
Nope, don’t push this trash. Every single gun death was a preventable death and not a single one should be swept under the rug.
Means reduction and survivability play a massive role in the suicide prevention.
Widespread legal firearms allow distressed people to end their lives in a split second impulse, robbing them of an opportunity to be helped.
Only 1 in 10 people who attempt suicide will go on to die by suicide, but the survival rate for attempts with guns is practically zero.
Teenagers are blowing their brains out with their guns of their “responsible gun owner” fathers who no doubt bragged about how he was going to “keep his family safe”, then failed to secure it from a deeply distressed child.
You can also fuck off with the “gang violence” stuff, which is frequently code for “don’t worry, they’re only black people”.
There is no magic gun fairy arming them. They either bought the gun at a store because the system is deeply flawed or they stole it from a “responsible gun owner” that failed to secure it.
But even writing it all off as “just criminals doing crime”, it’s still bullshit. Innocent people are killed, maimed and traumatised by both armed criminals and the trigger happy police who use them as an excuse.
And just how much gun violence are they responsible for? Roughly the same as domestic abusers who kill their partners. Want to hand wave them away too?
Those figures are include in the gun violence stats because they’re a symptom of the gun problem.
If you want to be an “ally”, the first step is to stop pushing the talking points of racists and lobby groups.
Not a single source or actual number posted after all that bluster. You tell me not to push trash and you keep pulling irrelevant numbers out of your ass. And that racism line? Holy shit, what a coward you are cherry picking and trying to paint me as a dog whistle user. I wish you could see how off the mark you are but that’ll never happen.
Congratulations on being the first absolute dumbfuck of my Lemmy experience (I should have known by the username). It’s a shame, because you mean well but why would I bother to engage further? Fuck off.
Bill Clinton banned assault weapons in 1994; mass shootings dropped by 43%.
George W. Bush and the GOP let the assault weapons ban expire in 2004; mass shootings increased by 245%.
These numbers tell the whole story.
https://elk.zone/mstdn.social/@Strandjunker/111301755969285547
https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527
edit:
more simply: https://www.theonion.com/no-way-to-prevent-this-says-only-nation-where-this-r-1819576527
That wasn’t a prohibition though, I was referring to any number of actual prohibitions. Like alcohol in the 20s and such.
There’s no denying taking something built to kill away can reduce said killings and I’m very much for sane, logical gun control. However, the point is that all out prohibition is neither historically or even mathematically feasible considering there are more of them than actual Americans (another problem we have). Do you understand the nuance?
No they didn’t, because they weren’t really a thing at the time…also columbine and VT happened with handguns during the AWB…it was sunset because it didn’t do anything.
Are you refuting these stats and do you want to provide a source for that?
Also, saying that some gun violence happened so that means gun control doesn’t work is nonsense. It’s like “well some died in a car crash so seat belts and airbags don’t work.”
The facts on this one just aren’t on your side. Looking at this either way - the US is a third world country when it comes to gun violence, and secondarily, countries with relatively little to no gun control have extreme rates of gun violence.
Just as important, cracking down on capitalists. Recovering the wealth they’ve stolen, and using it to help provide not just for health care. But housing and food security. So people don’t have to live under the dread and constant stress to their mental state. That capitalists have engineered to facilitate their theft.
Do we really need to change our laws because some lone wolf who clearly had no political positions at all totally did not get weaponized by the media and churned through a system that literally hands guns to the mentally ill?
Fuck me man. 22 dead now.
Where are all those good guys with guns!
Dead, because they’re a priority target.
Open carry is for inch-dick assholes.
This dude is straight up rolling in blasting from the photos I’ve seen. Even if you had a gun on you, you wouldn’t have the time to aim before he’s mowing you down.
yes, that’s the point
Where are you seeing these photos?
I guess this wasn’t one of the 3% of shootings they intervene in, just another of the 99% they enthusiastically enable.
They just confirmed 18 during the live conference
The shooter is still at large.
Three locations have been attacked so far.
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A large chunk decided to pretend gun laws were never a thing.
Maybe it’s because western movies went out of style, where refusing to turn your guns over to the sheriff was the entire plot point.
Pretty much the ruling class decided they’d be richer if more people bought guns, so guess what people did?
It’s not really as complex as people make out.
The gun lobby profits from gun sales. Mass shootings increase gun sales, which in turn increase mass shootings, giving them the growth they demand.
But mass shootings also increase demand for gun control, so the gun lobby spends millions of dollars openly bribing Republicans, millions more in courts fighting progressives, and undisclosed amounts astro-turfing and seeding talking points online.
The spreadsheets say that’s the path to maximum profits, so that’s the path they take. They simply don’t care about these 22 people or the 220 before that or the 2,200 before that. It will never be their kids expensive school.
So is it not on Reddit because conservative down votes, shitty algorithm, not enough people compared to bots, or a combination of the above?
Going there for the first time since the migration, and not seeing it anywhere on the top of anything (/Maine had it but couldn’t get a sticky) while not logged in made me very satisfied I’ve made the correct decision sticking around lemmy.
They screwed with the algorithm years ago. It took about 4 hours for it to show up on /r/all via /r/Maine.
I remember when I got breaking news on reddit almost immediately. 4 hours? What a joke.
It’s been front page of reddit for many hours now https://www.reddit.com/r/news/comments/17gjs8e/suspect_at_large_after_2_active_shooter_incidents/
Reddit is a censorship hellhole.
There’s so much secretive bullshit going on there it isn’t worth taking seriously.
Having a public modlog is necessary to keep mods accountable.
Reddit does absolutely nothing to combat shills and vote manipulation because it all looks like ad impressions to investors.
They’re probably here already, since the buy in is so low. But realistically they’d be focused on the bigger sites for something like this.
Wait a shooting? Quick someone get the Constitution back out after we shelved it to stop women from driving on roads and other religions to exist!
It’s up to 22 dead now. Jfc.
Guns are for killing people and semi-automatic guns are for killing lots of people.
https://newrepublic.com/article/176042/ar15-gun-culture-unmade-america
The gun that unmade America was built to address a secret, long-suppressed problem: The American fighting man just wasn’t that good at fighting. And if the AR-15 is so feared these days, it’s because it’s brought that sub-competence to the civilian world, where now literally any idiot can use it to unleash mayhem and death.
Tell me you don’t know shit about guns without telling me you know shit about guns…
That is so original and funny. Have you tried reddit?
Have you tried posting the onion article that always gets posted with these threads? You’ll probably get a bunch of laughs
Yeah! I mean look at this former responsible gun owner in Maine! He has a AR-15 and is clearly very good at killing innocent people.
So they’re not just for morbidly obese middle-aged men, with neither combat training nor the discipline to undertake it, to parade around with in a poorly articulated tantrum about masks, posing at a sloppy attention for the Fox News cameras.
The only thing these damn gun-grabbers seem to know about guns is how many innocent people they kill and how seldom they deliver on their promises.
Dude was barred from owning firearms…again what law would have stopped it?
A full ban on semi-automatic weapons. Thanks for your support.
Lol so basically all firearms? And you plan on going and taking the 450+ million of them in civ hands?
They can either comply with the new laws or become illegal gun owners that get found and charged like any other illegal gun owner.
Of course, the "are you going to take them? " isn’t meant to be a logistical problem, it’s meant to be a threat.
If you want to fire on innocent people because you didn’t like democracy, go right ahead – it’s not like legal gun owners aren’t doing that every day already.
At least it will be the cause of the problem dying in a hail of bullets, rather than innocent people.
Again who are you sending to take them? Because you have just started a civil war…and bad news, those police you hate…are mostly on the gun owning side. You really haven’t thought this through.
I know shit about guns. That article is fairly accurate.
No it’s not, it’s just more bullshit trying to vilify a plastic rifle. It’s not more deadly than any other semi auto rifle.
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Considering the AR15 is just a plastic semi auto rifle, and the article makes it out to be a more deadly rifle…it absolutely is a shit article
And nothing will change.
Damn video games at it again!
/s
I thought it’s all the drag queen’s fault these days?
These fuckin men dressin’ as ladies, minding their own business! Destroying this great country!
I have a teacher who’s a super trump supporter anf says shit like this unironically. One of his favorite movies is Rocky Horror Picture Show, and I think that’s just one of the funniest things.
And the ssri drugs the liberal doctors give you that turn the frogs gay.
Got damn pokey mans and tick tacks
Such sad news. I wonder what triggered/motivated him.
Fear
My buddy grew up there. Fucking sad
Stormtroopers have been dispatched and instructed to exercise extreme caution. They will engage the suspected perpetrator only if absolutely necessary. Priority is to capture and bring the suspect to trial, if possible
Make sure to get him some McDonald’s first though.
I don’t understand why this is even news over there at this point
News networks profit from covering mass shootings. Mass shooting coverage sells more guns which is profitable for the gun lobby. More guns sold means more mass shootings.
It’s the circle of “profiting off innocent peoples deaths”
