I don’t want them to blame me, but I also will not hold it against them if they do. It’ll be understandable, but maybe not perfectly accurate.
However, these officers are in a different situation than that. They’re choosing to work as cops and with the person who caused this. I’m sure they’d fight to protect them if it comes to it, so if they get part of the punishment that’s fine. They need to learn they can’t do what they’re doing, and they aren’t going to learn by us asking nicely. They need to face consequences of some form, and the legal system isn’t handling it.
What that sounds like is that you are okay with collateral damage. But where does that stop? Are you ok with the killing of thier spouse because they chose to marry someone who became a cop? What about thier kids? Cousins? Neighbors? People who live in the same apartment complex?
Where do you draw the line? And why?
A very solid line against anyone who didn’t choose it. Spouse? Probably not, but it’s in the blurry area. Are they encouraging them to be evil? I’d rather none of it happen, including the cops killing people. If they are, it’d be good if they faced consequences, so they couldn’t do it freely. Those first two aren’t happening though, so something else needs to. The only way they stop at this point is if they’re afraid to murder people. Again, preferably this is done through the legal process, but that isn’t happening.
For me, killing a cop indiscriminately is not okay. A dirty cop, I will say ok assuming the punishment fits the crime. The problem you describe is caused by poloticians, union leaders, and the legal system. They are the ones that should be “pressured” to affect change.
I agree mostly, but I would say the union at least would work to change things if they see cops being murdered because cops are legally getting away with murder. The union works for the cops. They try to protect them, and if that means they need stricter rules so they can’t cause danger for other cops, that’s what they’d do. It might take a while though.
The same might be done by politicians or judges/the legal system if they see this too. The fact of the matter is, what the cops are doing is already illegal. It just isn’t enforced. If these people see vigilantism against cops rise, I’d hope (though I wouldn’t bet on it) that they’d start making changes to the system so people don’t feel that’s necessary.
Also, yes, this would be the literal definition of terrorism. What the cops are doing is also terrorism. It’s only ever seen as bad when it’s entities other than the state doing it, because they control the media.
Again, I hope we don’t see this happening, but I also see that people feel they aren’t left with an alternative, so I expect it to become more common unless things begin to change.
Edit: I also want to add that all cops are complicit unless they’re speaking out for change and calling out the dirty cops, but then you don’t get to be a cop for long. One rotten apple spoils the bunch. Get rid of the rotten apples or you’re all going to be rotten.
I dunno. The kind of macho person who becomes a cop isn’t likely to respond to vigilantes killing cops by looking inside to fix the problem. They seem more likely to ask for more powers and such to go after potential vigilantes and such.
The union leaders aren’t dumb people. Just power hungry and more loyal than sensible. They know they can’t change current bad cops into good cops. And they know if they try to get rid of the bad cops they will reduce thier power and influence as the will represent less people, and collect less in union dues. They just have no motivation to improve quality. And killing indiscriminately will only give them more influence through sympathy and outrage.
I don’t know how we motivate them though. Probably financially. Maybe somehow make the union pay a portion of every settlement or something.
Trust me that will always be part of your person in the eyes if others and has been for quite some time now.
It took decades for Germans to not be immediately seen as Nazis in other European countries even when the Germans were obviously born after WW2. And to this day one of the first things you get to hear is something related to WW2, today mostly by non-europeans.
Blame is usually reserved for those actively contributing to the problem. There are several words for not doing anything to solve a problem, but blame doesn’t really fit.
And how would you know if I was or was not actively doing something. That’s kind of my point. If you blame someone for something just by association, and don’t even try to find out if they are trying to solve the problem… I am not in favor of that.
Afterall, a person can’t actively work to solve every problem that people who they are associated with cause. So you would be to blame for the mexican drug cartels killing people because you aren’t actively working to solve that problem, but people from your country surely do drugs which is why the cartels exist and kill people.
how would you know if I was or was not actively doing something
It’s the Internet I don’t. The difference in perspective I see is the lack of ‘guilt by association’ which only goes so far. That was kind of what the whole Nuremberg trials were about. My point is that if you are not confident that in a real life interaction you can demonstrate either you were unaware, were resisting, dis-associated yourself or were incapable, then you do shoulder some of the blame.
The fact we’re having this conversation shows you are not unaware, I hope you’re actively resisting but the defensiveness tells me you might not believe you’re doing enough, and if that’s because you’re incapable, for whatever reason, then give yourself some grace. If that’s not the case then yes, you modern_medicine are to blame for the fascist bullshit happening around you.
people from your country surely do drugs which is why the cartels exist and kill people.
I believe you have a poor understanding of what cartels are and why they exist, but yes using your example I can confidently say I actively work to alleviate the conditions that result in people self-medicating and have distanced myself from cartels and their activities as much as I am aware and capable of. Can you say the same?
I agree that “blame” may not be the right word. Is there an English word for “complicit through complacency”?
Yes, “complicit through complacency” is much better. I thought there were lots of single words that fit too. But I struggled to find any that didn’t imply active assistance.
I do what I can. But it doesn’t feel like enough. At the same time, most of it feels ineffective. In my case I have to weigh the saftey of my family against my ideology. It’s not fair to my kids to go and get myself locked up or worse.
And it clearly isn’t enough as things are getting worse, but also what I’m doing clearly isn’t enough either. Unfortunately, it’s impossible for one, or two, people to do enough. It’s just important you do what you can and remain cynical about what those limitations are.
I apologize if this felt like it was targeted explicitly at you, but I don’t see a path forward without aggressively corralling those who are doing “what is expected” vs “what they can” and I apologize if my attempts at pushing were misdirected or misplaced.
Keep on doing what your doing, if we all keep doing what we can we’ll get through this.
I dunno. I’m American, and I sure don’t want the world blaming me for what trump is doing. But I do share your frustration in general.
I don’t want them to blame me, but I also will not hold it against them if they do. It’ll be understandable, but maybe not perfectly accurate.
However, these officers are in a different situation than that. They’re choosing to work as cops and with the person who caused this. I’m sure they’d fight to protect them if it comes to it, so if they get part of the punishment that’s fine. They need to learn they can’t do what they’re doing, and they aren’t going to learn by us asking nicely. They need to face consequences of some form, and the legal system isn’t handling it.
What that sounds like is that you are okay with collateral damage. But where does that stop? Are you ok with the killing of thier spouse because they chose to marry someone who became a cop? What about thier kids? Cousins? Neighbors? People who live in the same apartment complex? Where do you draw the line? And why?
A very solid line against anyone who didn’t choose it. Spouse? Probably not, but it’s in the blurry area. Are they encouraging them to be evil? I’d rather none of it happen, including the cops killing people. If they are, it’d be good if they faced consequences, so they couldn’t do it freely. Those first two aren’t happening though, so something else needs to. The only way they stop at this point is if they’re afraid to murder people. Again, preferably this is done through the legal process, but that isn’t happening.
For me, killing a cop indiscriminately is not okay. A dirty cop, I will say ok assuming the punishment fits the crime. The problem you describe is caused by poloticians, union leaders, and the legal system. They are the ones that should be “pressured” to affect change.
I agree mostly, but I would say the union at least would work to change things if they see cops being murdered because cops are legally getting away with murder. The union works for the cops. They try to protect them, and if that means they need stricter rules so they can’t cause danger for other cops, that’s what they’d do. It might take a while though.
The same might be done by politicians or judges/the legal system if they see this too. The fact of the matter is, what the cops are doing is already illegal. It just isn’t enforced. If these people see vigilantism against cops rise, I’d hope (though I wouldn’t bet on it) that they’d start making changes to the system so people don’t feel that’s necessary.
Also, yes, this would be the literal definition of terrorism. What the cops are doing is also terrorism. It’s only ever seen as bad when it’s entities other than the state doing it, because they control the media.
Again, I hope we don’t see this happening, but I also see that people feel they aren’t left with an alternative, so I expect it to become more common unless things begin to change.
Edit: I also want to add that all cops are complicit unless they’re speaking out for change and calling out the dirty cops, but then you don’t get to be a cop for long. One rotten apple spoils the bunch. Get rid of the rotten apples or you’re all going to be rotten.
I dunno. The kind of macho person who becomes a cop isn’t likely to respond to vigilantes killing cops by looking inside to fix the problem. They seem more likely to ask for more powers and such to go after potential vigilantes and such. The union leaders aren’t dumb people. Just power hungry and more loyal than sensible. They know they can’t change current bad cops into good cops. And they know if they try to get rid of the bad cops they will reduce thier power and influence as the will represent less people, and collect less in union dues. They just have no motivation to improve quality. And killing indiscriminately will only give them more influence through sympathy and outrage. I don’t know how we motivate them though. Probably financially. Maybe somehow make the union pay a portion of every settlement or something.
Trust me that will always be part of your person in the eyes if others and has been for quite some time now.
It took decades for Germans to not be immediately seen as Nazis in other European countries even when the Germans were obviously born after WW2. And to this day one of the first things you get to hear is something related to WW2, today mostly by non-europeans.
Then I guess you should probably be actively doing something about that problem shouldn’t you?
So long as you aren’t that blame isn’t really misplaced is it?
Blame is usually reserved for those actively contributing to the problem. There are several words for not doing anything to solve a problem, but blame doesn’t really fit. And how would you know if I was or was not actively doing something. That’s kind of my point. If you blame someone for something just by association, and don’t even try to find out if they are trying to solve the problem… I am not in favor of that. Afterall, a person can’t actively work to solve every problem that people who they are associated with cause. So you would be to blame for the mexican drug cartels killing people because you aren’t actively working to solve that problem, but people from your country surely do drugs which is why the cartels exist and kill people.
It’s the Internet I don’t. The difference in perspective I see is the lack of ‘guilt by association’ which only goes so far. That was kind of what the whole Nuremberg trials were about. My point is that if you are not confident that in a real life interaction you can demonstrate either you were unaware, were resisting, dis-associated yourself or were incapable, then you do shoulder some of the blame.
The fact we’re having this conversation shows you are not unaware, I hope you’re actively resisting but the defensiveness tells me you might not believe you’re doing enough, and if that’s because you’re incapable, for whatever reason, then give yourself some grace. If that’s not the case then yes, you modern_medicine are to blame for the fascist bullshit happening around you.
I believe you have a poor understanding of what cartels are and why they exist, but yes using your example I can confidently say I actively work to alleviate the conditions that result in people self-medicating and have distanced myself from cartels and their activities as much as I am aware and capable of. Can you say the same?
I agree that “blame” may not be the right word. Is there an English word for “complicit through complacency”?
Yes, “complicit through complacency” is much better. I thought there were lots of single words that fit too. But I struggled to find any that didn’t imply active assistance.
I do what I can. But it doesn’t feel like enough. At the same time, most of it feels ineffective. In my case I have to weigh the saftey of my family against my ideology. It’s not fair to my kids to go and get myself locked up or worse.
And it clearly isn’t enough as things are getting worse, but also what I’m doing clearly isn’t enough either. Unfortunately, it’s impossible for one, or two, people to do enough. It’s just important you do what you can and remain cynical about what those limitations are.
I apologize if this felt like it was targeted explicitly at you, but I don’t see a path forward without aggressively corralling those who are doing “what is expected” vs “what they can” and I apologize if my attempts at pushing were misdirected or misplaced.
Keep on doing what your doing, if we all keep doing what we can we’ll get through this.