I have been self-employed since around 92, I have more failed startups under my belt than some you have had sex. My current business is 13 years old but it still makes me just a living,
I grew it from me and one bloke to 13 employees. Now here is the thing, when I had all those employees I earned less than I did when it was just 2 of us.
I didn’t get to do much except sales, admin and fixing stuff those 13 Guys fucked up. After doing some sums I let attrition do the job and reduced back to a solo outfit.
Now I am tired before I start my day, my back hurts and lifting stuff that just two years ago was a breeze is no longer as easy. This is an age thing, I realised the other day that my pension plan is good for just about 3 hours. https://dustfactory.co.za You can look at my website here and until about 3 years ago it was supplying too many leads for me to reply to. COVID broke that., but I am tired more than not getting enough work. .
I ran a web dev company before this one in a small town in Africa and clients were limited, too much competition, people offering work at stupid low prices and I got tired of counting cents, so I went back to my trade.
I used my skills developed during that period to out perform all my opposition on the web for the woodworking business. The most important thing that I learned in the business was saying no, or even fuck off. You cannot offer value and quality if you are too cheap.
I have moved to a big city, reduced overheads and can now retire about 3 hours before I kick the bucket. I really don’t want to get back in the death spiral competing with people charging too little for their service, mainly because I am convinced that a website that doesn’t bring results is not an investment for any business.
I have started updating my skills again, updating the CMS that I built and have been using. also have registered a few domains to build sites on as test beds.
The numbers below are based on exchange rates and are in no way accurate, they are just an example. My question is as follows, let’s say the cheap blokes are selling web sites for $100 and they place them, charge for hosting about $7 a month, but are doing no SEO, no forward planning, just put it up and forget it, How much should I be charging a month for full service?
Would you be willing to pay $250 a month for a site that includes all the SEO stuff like semantics, includes me sorting out your local SEO stuff, creating content regularly or would that seem like too much of a difference. I am assuming small businesses as clients.
Next check out my website and tell me if it creates confidence. Note not all the content is complete yet, but check out these pages please.
https://centuriondesign.co.za/
https://centuriondesign.co.za/pages/SEO.html
https://centuriondesign.co.za/pages/web-design.html
Tell me how I could improve them, What could I do that would help you make a decision?
You must log in or register to comment.
I have a feeling ur strengths are in selling. Let one of us redo ur site for you. Id be willing to do it free of charge. I’ll just be interested in a tiny stake in ur business. I can be your registered agent in the US, and I bring a lot of small business development and e-commerce development marketing experience to the table. I do web development, SEO marketing all that stuff too. But MY THING ultimately turned out to be SMB development training cells and support staff, and coming up with creative fulfillment solutions. Let me know if that piquee ur interest. I have years of experience data mining for specific lead sources, traditional lead funneling through marketing, and I’m an expert at merchant arbitration. In fact, I became known for - if a client called in to cancel services for any reason, I would turn them around and upsell them to a package involving more investment on their part. lol.
Read $100m offers by Alex Hormozi. Charge as much as you can by providing the most value
Lay off the web design and focus on photography or smaller wood working offerings.
Make a mobile-first 1-page multi-section website with something like WordPress or wix because users know how to navigate those types of sites - and it’s all about the user experience, not your ability to code.
Market yourself at wedding events. Build relationships with local schools and churches for their yearbooks and directories. Promote birthday photos at daycare and after-school places. Heck, even offer pet photography.
The point is to find a niche where your services can shine, instead of drowning in competition in the quickly changing market of web design and AI-driven SEO/content.
Or… Maybe the heavy lifting you used to do in woodworking could be mitigated by using your woodworking skills in a smaller form. Folk where I’m at are making a killing sanding down found wood into table tops or benches and filling the natural cracks with colored resin.
Cabinet Doors are also a big market, customers don’t have to tear out and replace the entire cabinet, instead they get new cabinet doors which are much more affordable for them - whether it’s painted, resin, wood-burned designs, added wooden embellishments, etc. You could even offer modular options to fit on standard IKEA bookshelves and cabinets so folk can customize their furniture and you can keep your costs down due to its modular nature.
I’m going to go out on a limb here and assume that a lot of these actual developers that are thankfully take the time to respond to your post. Has never seen the side of the development and market industry that you’re probably part of. Front end sales? Up sales? Biz up coaching? That’s your thing? Message me I can help. I can legitimately help and I’m going to at least have conversation with you
Maybe you’re just not very good at it
I‘m sorry is this supposed to be a joke that I don’t get? Or are you seriously advertising webdesign services with a website straight out of 1998 that doesn’t even work right on mobile?
when i see stuff like this i really wonder why i have not taken the plunge into something… i think i poke way too many holes in everything i do and nothing ever feels finished because i am always thinking of something to improve… i need some of that confidence OP has lol
YES!! JUST FUCKING GO ALREADY WHAT THE FUCK!!!
There’s this disgusting realization I’ve gotten at different spots in different businesses that I’ve run over the years…. It’s this dense almost dark feeling that NO ONE IS DOING ANYTHING AND THERE IS NO COMPETITION
I’ve been in certain niches for over a decade and it’s beyond shocking how little innovation there is… people don’t do anything and there is no competition. Those who succeed DO! They’re doers not thinkers. That’s why they say the low iq entrepreneurs who blissfully go into things are more likely to be successful compared to the smarter pants who overthink everything and never take action.
lemme uhhhh… think about it…
‘One step forward is worth 10,000 years thinking about it’
I started looking at web dev/design companies in my area. Then in my country. As far as I can tell, almost all of them use WP, Wix or jQuery. The sites are, often, not great looking. Found a web design company’s homepage with a performance score of 31. Companies in my target demographic usually have either no website or a terrible website lacking even the most basic SEO (Found a company website that doesn’t even mention where they operate), with poor UX and outdated designs.
Like you, I’m always trying to think of things to improve, but I’m good with complex stuff so I’ve made myself an app that lets me build highly performant static sites incredibly quickly. Design and content takes time, but the actual code and deployment takes me virtually no time at all, unless I need to expand on my app to accomdodate some new design feature.
I spent about 2 months building the app and learning about website design, and how to operate a website. I’m still finishing up some touches before I start actively selling but… If you have technical skills, there’s no reason not to give it a shot. The competition is abundant, but held back by poor quality and their outdated tools. I’m trying to leverage my high technical competence to save time so I can offer a (far) superior service at a better price.
99% of websites here us WP,
What mobile are you using? Please send screen shots so that I can diagnose the problem You can start a whatsapp conversation from the site.
I build websites that work as in get results, Design is not as important as function, but if you show me an example of what you think is not 1998 I’ll code it.
Yeah listen to this guy. Also why are random words capitalized? I would not trust these sites. These websites leave a lot to be desired.
Hi, I hear your pain and struggle. You seem to be in a very tough position financially and mentally. First of all, get a big hug from you (I’m a hugger). Can I ask you what you’re passionate about in the jobs and businesses that you run? I believe that having a passion for what you do is one of the most important things when running a business. Your customers will smell when you’re not passionate about it and will run away.
To your questions:
- The pricing. I don’t even know yet what you’re selling me. You seem to be selling a product (the website) instead of results that I get from paying you (e.g. ease of mind, constant influx of customers, etc.). So if you’re not clear about your value proposition, sit down and figure this out first. Before that, you don’t need to do anything else because they will only waste your time and money.
- On the websites: My honest answer is that I wouldn’t hire you if that is your best work.
- The design is completely outdated. My eyes are offended, and I don’t know where to look. Things are hard to read, and images are in a bad resolution so everything is pixelated on my screen.
- Spacing and wireframe aid in my confusion, as they don’t lead me through the page. I recommend learning the basics of UI/UX design before offering this as a product. Start with things like the Gestalt Principles, and the 60/30/10 rule of color palettes.
- Way too much text. Why do I need to read so much to understand what you’re offering? Be clear, precise, and concise in your copywriting. “If you confuse you lose.” Make it as easy for me as you can to say yes to whatever you’re offering.
- No clear CTAs (call to action): you got a button in the hero section…that is not recognizable as such. Follow the design principle of affordance. Something needs to look like I can do the action with it that I want to do (e.g. a button looks like you can press it).
My recommendations in general are:
- Figure out what your vision for your life is.
- If you know that, think of ways how to achieve this vision.
- Then create an action plan in detail that leads you towards your vision and execute it.
- Find someone who did what you want to do and learn from them. u/General-Lobster-4837 recommended Alex Hormozi for example. If your goal is to build businesses with the sole purpose of returning more money and getting very rich, this is a great spot to start. If your vision is another one find someone that aligns with your vision.
- Learn everything you can about the path you chose and that can help you reach your goal faster. Learning is a thing you do for your whole life not just when you’re young. It is awesome that you reach out to this community to improve on what you’re doing. You’re doing great!
I’m open to chatting more if you’d like to get more input. :)
a) Thanks for your input, I really appreciate it.
OK I get that, Selling websites bad idea, selling results good idea.
Explain what you mean by outdated, may point me at a couple of sites that are not outdated.
From an SEO perspective text gets results, It has done so for me for a few years. My wood working site has given me results because I supplied better information than any other local woodworking business. I am moving on from that purely because my body is no longer as co operative with the heavy lifting and stuff.
I will make changes to that get started button tomorrow, that is a must obviously.
I will look for some UX training and see what the latest ideas are, I have always felt that
SEO gets people on your website but it doesn’t get you orders if the website is not good.
No it generates the leads and then I go do the sale.
There are like 30 people telling you that your website is not good. You come here telling that there is nothing wrong and we just don’t understand ignoring all legitimate critisism.
Meanwhile you say that you have founded countless startups which for some reason all failed and you have trouble making money.
I feel like there might be a connection here…
sadly this is not how it works.
Also, did you design around the mobile site? Or is the site just automatically adjusting? Things for mobile makes a big difference
Wordpress has a lot of templates/plug-ins and you can optimize the sites very easily.
But wordpress sucks
Ex: https://stripe.com/
Toolkit that gets you there: webflow.comNote - not affiliated, just have a student account that I putz around on. Like it way better than anything else I’ve used.
Optimization these days isn’t the same thing as some old brochure labeled " what is SEO?’ keyword packing has long been considered black hat, , it hasn’t really been effective since the days to ask Jeeves.com … new relevant high quality content or copy is important. But the key is consistently publishing new high quality content through the various platforms that are available on social media and otherwise. I should probably know, you can have chati PT right? Most of the content for you and have it programmed ahead of time schedule to match peak traffic hours, or at least to match the hours that are appropriate to your market demographic. Anyways, let me know if you’re interested in talking
On the websites: My honest answer is that I wouldn’t hire you if that is your best work.
Yeah I’m not a designer just an end user but it seems… off to me. I can’t put a finger on it maybe the heading being off padding or too little spacing between the top and the words but I would agree, I personally would not buy it. Potentially a lot of people wouldn’t.
Just be honest with him and say it’s completely terrible, sugarcoating won’t help here. I thought I went back to 1990 there for a second.
A Squarespace template would even be better!
Well…maybe try to be a little more compassionate - and diplomatic - rather than say, “it’s completely terrible.”
Constructive criticism can be a lot more helpful than being too blunt.
Well the reason is that there is no design whatsoever in the page
It’s a bunch of haphazardly chosen and put together styles that don’t match and don’t establish any kind of visual hierarchy
Visually it makes no sense
The page without css would look better and be more readable than it is now, likely
Ngl I need a hug too marcel
NO HUGS FOR YOU!
Someone downvoted you but I get the soup nazi reference take my upvote.
🫂🫂 here are two hugs for you u/Gemsix
Digital hug for you 🫂🫂🫂🫂
I agree. Maybe you’re a marketing guy, an SEO? I think you should hire a designer. One who und erstands basic design
Outsourcing is one way, but as the main issue here seems to be increasing profits that would take from this goal again. Additionally creates a dependency that is not really necessary in the beginning.
The basic design can be learned within one week and there are a lot of great free resources out there to learn. So my recommendation is to start there. And if you figure out after that week that it is something that you can’t wrap your head around or you right out despise it, you can still outsource it. :)He’s not just starting out though. He’s been in the web development space for a long time it sounds like. Also doesn’t seem to have a natural artistic flare. You’d be surprised how affordable some white label services are, and for how much profit. You can resell them for, depending on your target leads. And this also solves the problem of scalability going forward
Great feedback, if a bit rough to hear. You’ve got this OP!
I prefer to cut the bullshit and I seem to have the ability to call people out on all the fake excuses they make to themselves. Zero tolerance for those here. :D It’s kind of the “bandaid rip-off” method. Might not be the most comfortable, but it will bring you to your goal a lot faster.
Forget offering any service. Sounds like you have experience and knowledge. Sell that. A course - teach people what you know or how to do what you do. Maybe a paid newsletter. Sounds like you’re passionate about what you did/ do. Turn that into something people will buy. Then nobody can race you to bottom on price because nobody can offer what you can.
Honestly, and I say this respectfully, I think it’s a little too late to the game… your sites use outdated formats and code. Nowadays it’s all about frameworks like Laravel, codeignitor, vue.js, etc with dynamic view frameworks like bootstrap
Past this I don’t think anyone is going to pay a monthly subscription like that for SEO when people sell SEO for a onetime flat fee of usually dirt cheap (whether it works or not). Also, SEO is only half of the battle nowadays. Gone are the days where you’d rank high with the right keywords… It’s more than that like engagement/clicks, and even payments to Google ads or whomever you want to be high on
I’m sorry I just wanted to be honest about this
There is money to be made in buying and selling domain names though, unfortunately that’s also out the window as most places snatch and hold for over $1,500+ that people just aren’t gonna pay…
Woodguy used to be my site some years ago, I let it go because “the brand was not serious enough” Dumbest advice I ever got. When it was mine it ranked on Google, now it does not.
I aim to please business owners not web designers. I would take down the woodguy site and take away all that flashy crap. It impresses designers, looks impressive but delivers no results.
Just as a matter of interest are you seriously suggesting that using Laravel, Bootstrap et al to code php is better option than coding by hand and that websites not using those tools are inferior, I suppose you think WordPress is great as well?
The html extension makes no difference to the operation of the site, I use .htaccess to fetch the php file.
People selling SEO services for a flat fee are charlatans, Websites need to evolve because the rules are changing, My website may look like it was designed in 1996 but the content as been updated many many times,
I could also use Joomla, Drupal, WordPress like all my opposition but here is the thing My site uses 1/10th of the code that Wordpress does that is why I scored 97% on the SEO ranker tool, My site hasn’t been up for a month and already I have had a couple visit attributed to the SERPs.
I am currently using a heatmap app to test where the pain points are and will be making some changes once I have enough data.
Data driven development is the future not some arbitrary development platform.
Despite using 1/10th the code, your desktop LCP time is 7.7s. Your “SEO score” might be high, but in 2023 UX is even more important than some arbitrary score, and that 7.7s just doesn’t cut it for a company that does SEO.
With all due respect, your site does not inspire confidence. Having something a prospective client will recognize as authoritative is much more important than your puritan views on coding. BTW, you can code from scratch and make it not look like shit, it just takes longer.
I don’t have the slightest clue why you’re mixing photography with web design and SEO. As a former photographer myself, I would not even dream of that. I have separate businesses and they can “refer” each other if need be. The photography also looks about as dated as the website if I’m being honest.
I 100% agree with this!
What’s this SEO score you talk about? You can have a stunning website using any combination of frameworks and have great SEO.
Also frameworks are there to help you and speed up development, so maybe you can put more time on the user experience than custom making whatever you’re doing.
User Experience is #1 and the user experience on your is dull, I recommend you look into that
💯💯💯💯
I’m sorry but you’re just not understanding the situation here, and unfortunately that will severely limit your idea of becoming what you desire. It’s like a car mechanic never switching their knowledge from carburetor to electric fuel ignition…
It’s also not about the amount of code that’s being used. You’re overthinking it like I used to, and severely limiting growth. If you ever had a website take off, you’ll be screwed because it’ll only be you who understands it #1 (keeping others from helping), and #2 you’ll be scrambling all over files and folders trying to add, fix, and remove things - that again only you will know
I know this because I was like you. Exactly like you. And I tried hiring other devs to help me fix issues I couldn’t learn (website was outgrowing my spaghetti code), and I had no choice but to start from scratch and go with Laravel + Bootstrap. Now it’s so standardized, I could literally hire any random person who knows Laravel, and they can do whatever I need them to without anything being broken or changed, or having to spend hours figuring out what the heck I did
For comparison, my litter management website project that uses Laravel + Bootstrap, with many Composer components (that’s another thing you’ll want to learn), is over 300MB in size total with 15,644 files and 1,314 folders and still loads faster and looks better than your websites with high scores on Google pagespeed… And that’s not even including the database
I wish you luck though
laravel and bootstrap are not the same as wordpress at all. why bother coming here for advice if you’re not gonna take any of it? there’s a reason why you are asking for advice lol
Honestly, and I say this respectfully, I think it’s a little too late to the game… your sites use outdated formats and code. Nowadays it’s all about frameworks like Laravel, codeignitor, vue.js, etc with dynamic view frameworks like bootstrap
The navigation is completely outdated as well and doesn’t float down with the page as you scroll like typical sites do now. I would look into bootstrap websites and see how they look, as an example of where things are now
It’s also Mobile First, Desktop Second nowadays. Your websites are heavily Desktop First
The .html extension shows another layer of older technology. Nowadays it’s .php and you never show that at the end (using .htaccess to remove the extension)
When you click the links at the top, it’s using some kinda iframe / accordian switch and doesn’t give the user much confirmation that the page changed other than having to check and see… Bad practice. If you’re not going to visually/completely reload the page on click, then it should all be on one page and at most take you down to the different content, or have page titles at the top of each page so they know what page it’s on. OR highlight the page in the navigation links. Switching dynamically without much visual cue like it is now, is bad practice unfortunately. Either reload the whole website, or show something more uniform to signify the change (like highlighting in navbar, or having page titles)
I see you have another website, woodguy.co.za? That site is actually updated. Looks like maybe a Shopify site or something, but that’s the type of look at a minimum that you should go for (especially on a phone device)
Past this I don’t think anyone is going to pay a monthly subscription like that for SEO when people sell SEO for a onetime flat fee of usually dirt cheap (whether it works or not). Also, SEO is only half of the battle nowadays. Gone are the days where you’d rank high with the right keywords… It’s more than that like engagement/clicks, and even payments to Google ads or whomever you want to be high on
I’m sorry I just wanted to be honest about this
There is money to be made in buying and selling domain names though, unfortunately that’s also out the window as most places snatch and hold for over $1,500+ that people just aren’t gonna pay…
As for your current business, they always say that you need $350,000 in revenue before hiring another “head”. If you don’t, you’re at risk majorly… You likely got too many heads and spread yourself too thin. It happens to the best of us unfortunately.
Don’t be discouraged though. Coding/websites just evolve very fast/quick. My recommendation would be to do what I did… Get rid of the “spaghetti code” and switch to Laravel, and use Bootstrap themes to start out with. Obviously it’ll take a lot of learning but YouTube is at your disposal. I converted all of my sites from situations like yours to Laravel and Bootstrap and never looked back. It keeps things structured, easy to update/change, and more. You probably think it’s eays now… I did too… Until you start learning and figuring out that dang, there’s a much better (mostly structured/standardized) way to do these things
Best of luck to you :)
Market research is key tbh. Find the thing that people would want. Maybe there’s a deficit for something. Also, the location is really important.
Your websites aren’t showing very well in mobile (this is crucial), but besides something which can be fixed, I’m not clear on the first part of your post concerning your woodwork and design business… are you going to sell the company or wanting to sell it now?
Get rid of the .html extension. Also, your homepage does not give confidence, it looks very outdated and more like a blog than an actual homepage. Best of luck
Are there any bonafide restaurants in your area/country who would hire your company to make a website for them and to help public health? © Dr. Diana Hallare ® I also need help in expanding taxi services for “Doctors without Borders,” “Habitat for Humanity,” “Smile Train.” I am trying to expand SuperShuttle too. I have tried to ask other people I know for help.
Not my niche, The only thing I know about Restaurants is that some are good and some suck
Serious people make serious posts
You’re not a serious person
I’m not here for a debate, just giving you a wake up call
Some observations to show I’m serious:
First. Your title has nothing to do with your post and starts things off with a negative attitude. If you wanted more effective feedback, you would write the question right from the start and would have a more welcoming or positive title. It suggests a lack of maturity and perhaps a sense of entitled thinking and / or an inability the changes. But most importantly, someone reading this has to hunt through the post to begin to figure out what you are asking help about. Wading through a bunch of nonsense and complaints to get to some odd question about pricing. And then random questions about your service in general. And to be clear, it’s confusing to read.
Second. If you want to be a good entrepreneur and successful at soliciting feedback, you need to spend time thinking through how you are going to organize it. I would spend 2-4 hours if necessary to make something look professional or clear to an audience that I thought I could get good feedback from; for free even. I would write an outline and then draft out something. Then I would wait a day and review what I wrote and edited it a couple of times; potentially adding or removing things. Then I would give that draft to several others to take a look at first to make sure it was clear and concise. After that I would incorporate their feedback and then review it one more time before posting it. That’s what a serious person would do. Instead you post a stream of conscious thing that is cluttered and all over the place. If I were a potential customer, I wouldn’t take you seriously unless I absolutely needed your products and there was no other companies providing the service or there were no substitutes for the products or services you sold.
I hope you take this feedback as honest criticisms that you can use to improve yourself. Good luck.
Thank you, noted