Then agree to disagree. I can reflect on a number of points in my life where I’ve decided that I did the wrong thing. I hold shame for those actions and use that to hold myself to better standards now. Guilt and regret is part of shame.
1a: a painful emotion caused by consciousness of guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety
Even in your context of bringing shame to people, or attempting to impart guilt and disgrace… That’s an important metric to build the exact culture of habits that you’re advocating for. Most people don’t care if they litter in the park. It’s only after you guilt them into it that they’ll do it.
But no point in going any further into this conversation. It’s clear your mind is made. Have a good weekend.
Ah, i see now that i was simply defining the word “shame” a bit differently, as i’ve observed it used in everyday life:
I’ve held shame to mean “a painful emotion caused by group-pressure that indicates guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety”.
What you’ve been describing as “shame”, i’ve called it insight in practice. Insight is a good thing because it bring with itself reflection and thought, which i also like to call meditation and contemplation. That’s what society needs.
What society does not need is group-pressure, because it leads to people behaving right, but for the wrong reasons. Such behavior is short-lived and tends to bite you in the ass when you’re most vulnerable. Compare that to college kids who have always been told “no alcohol”, and then at college the first thing they do is to enjoy the absence of their parents and drink so much alcohol they go into a coma and to the hospital. Had they been taught the implications that alcohol has on your near-term health and consciousness instead, they might have been wise enough to not drink too much out of themselves. :)
Sorry, but we’re still going to agree to disagree. Unfortunately, we can’t just make up definitions and have a discussion while in complete disagreement on the definition of the word we’re discussing.
Shame is WHY someone would be driven to pursue insight and self-reflection. Insight in of itself isn’t something that people just attain with no other factors.
Had they been taught the implications that alcohol has on your near-term health and consciousness instead, they might have been wise enough to not drink too much out of themselves. :)
Okay? What does this have to do with shame or the current conversation? I would argue that most kids hit the hard wall of realization the morning after and have some shame about the events of the night prior… Many kids realize their shame and gain insight through self-reflection. Some wont learn anything at all… Partially because some people simply have no shame, or simply have no will to self-reflect and grow… I would argue that your own example proves my point and shows that shame is an important part of growth. Others will learn “properly” about the health risks and still not care and conduct themselves in a shameful way regardless.
Shame requires some amount of morals, integrity, and honor. Otherwise you’d fail to feel any semblance of the guilt or impropriety of your own actions. Stating that someone should be ashamed is akin to saying “you’re acting without integrity/morals if you conduct yourself this way”. If telling people that they’re doing the wrong thing and should feel bad about it is now “banned” then you’re just going to have people doing whatever they want with no social feedback at all. You can’t develop the culture of habits that you’re looking for unless society can police social interactions in some form.
You seem to be under some belief that with sufficient education people will just be “good” and do the “right thing” and we don’t require any other pressure from any other social format to maintain the norm… That’s wishful thinking IMO.
Then agree to disagree. I can reflect on a number of points in my life where I’ve decided that I did the wrong thing. I hold shame for those actions and use that to hold myself to better standards now. Guilt and regret is part of shame.
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/shame
Even in your context of bringing shame to people, or attempting to impart guilt and disgrace… That’s an important metric to build the exact culture of habits that you’re advocating for. Most people don’t care if they litter in the park. It’s only after you guilt them into it that they’ll do it.
But no point in going any further into this conversation. It’s clear your mind is made. Have a good weekend.
Edit: clarification.
Ah, i see now that i was simply defining the word “shame” a bit differently, as i’ve observed it used in everyday life:
I’ve held shame to mean “a painful emotion caused by group-pressure that indicates guilt, shortcoming, or impropriety”.
What you’ve been describing as “shame”, i’ve called it insight in practice. Insight is a good thing because it bring with itself reflection and thought, which i also like to call meditation and contemplation. That’s what society needs.
What society does not need is group-pressure, because it leads to people behaving right, but for the wrong reasons. Such behavior is short-lived and tends to bite you in the ass when you’re most vulnerable. Compare that to college kids who have always been told “no alcohol”, and then at college the first thing they do is to enjoy the absence of their parents and drink so much alcohol they go into a coma and to the hospital. Had they been taught the implications that alcohol has on your near-term health and consciousness instead, they might have been wise enough to not drink too much out of themselves. :)
Sorry, but we’re still going to agree to disagree. Unfortunately, we can’t just make up definitions and have a discussion while in complete disagreement on the definition of the word we’re discussing.
Shame is WHY someone would be driven to pursue insight and self-reflection. Insight in of itself isn’t something that people just attain with no other factors.
Okay? What does this have to do with shame or the current conversation? I would argue that most kids hit the hard wall of realization the morning after and have some shame about the events of the night prior… Many kids realize their shame and gain insight through self-reflection. Some wont learn anything at all… Partially because some people simply have no shame, or simply have no will to self-reflect and grow… I would argue that your own example proves my point and shows that shame is an important part of growth. Others will learn “properly” about the health risks and still not care and conduct themselves in a shameful way regardless.
Shame requires some amount of morals, integrity, and honor. Otherwise you’d fail to feel any semblance of the guilt or impropriety of your own actions. Stating that someone should be ashamed is akin to saying “you’re acting without integrity/morals if you conduct yourself this way”. If telling people that they’re doing the wrong thing and should feel bad about it is now “banned” then you’re just going to have people doing whatever they want with no social feedback at all. You can’t develop the culture of habits that you’re looking for unless society can police social interactions in some form.
You seem to be under some belief that with sufficient education people will just be “good” and do the “right thing” and we don’t require any other pressure from any other social format to maintain the norm… That’s wishful thinking IMO.