Hey all, I want to begin this with admitting my fault in not starting with an offer. The reason I didn’t send one in is because my customer had already worked with a few different photographers and the project is part of a networking exchange. My bad. So I went there and took pictures for a bit more than two hours. My own expectations of quality make me edit every set of pictures by hand, so no presets. That makes another two hours in editing. Now I’m based in Europe and I calculated my prices based on my cost, my taxes, my expected wage, available hours deducted by holiday and sick time and an overall paid workload of 40% of those hours. That makes me start my prices at 130 per hour of photography and 70 per post processing hour. Of course there is deductions for longer bookings, and networking opportunities etc. Overall I gave my customer the price of a bit more than 300 euros for the job. Sadly my customer wasn’t to happy and very confused as her recent partners oy charged her 100 or got invited for dinner. The customer also wanted to edit the pictures themselves. Again I’m at fault for not following proper procedure here. My questions are the following. Was the price unreasonable? Do you not edit your pictures the way I do and do you only use presets? What would you recommend to do in that situation. Thanks!
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You took a job without even discussing pricing? What were you thinking?
Side note, there is nothing wrong about presets and this idea that not using them is better is just wrong.
As a professional you should be striving to be as efficient as possible and presets allow that.
Thank you all for your insights and advice! I explained the pricing structure and of course it was my mistake not to be transparent about it before the shoot. We’ll find a solution that is fair for both parties. I’ll remember it as a learning.
You don’t work hourly. Stop that.
You need to wrap it into a project. Hourly pricing will always give you headaches and is the worst way to present pricing to customers.
If something takes longer than you anticipated, eat the cost and reprice it in the future or learn why it took longer and fix.
This way, as you get better and more efficient you gain time and your value stays the same.
It’s important to know what the customer wants in writing since what they want might change when it’s time to pay up.
Agree with a bunch of comments but did not see the question about handing over unedited pics. Is this a common thing? I would not hand over any raw images though…
You mention a networking exchange. I’m not entirely sure what that means, but, it isn’t a bartering agreement - nor is it a social call. Obviously not a gift, nor was it a situation where you were offered a % of their profits.
Sure, shame on you both for not establishing expectations. Kudos to you for recognizing a learning experience for what it is.
In this situation I’d probably acknowledge that expectations were not defined (ie; budgets or costs), and offer a 12% discount -or- the option to decline your product entirely without any questions asked or hard feelings.
When my neighbor gives me a ride down the street to pick up my car at the mechanic, I slip them a $20. When another friend took down a very small pine tree, I paid for their chainsaw - and then some. I want people to be fully compensated for the things they do for me.
Normal price, just never work again without communicating the costs beforehand.
We edit by hand. Never presets. (Presets are always just a starting point anyway, so why bother)
I would offer a good discount because it’s your fault that the price wasn’t communicated. Also, you obviously didn’t work with a written offer or contract. Live and learn.The price isn’t at all unreasonable, but failing to even discuss pricing and scope of work before a shoot is imho deeply unprofessional to the point you should probably just offer to accept whatever they had in mind as payment.
Nobody should ever be surprised by the final bill, it doesn’t matter if it’s higher or lower than expected, they should know in advance what the amount is and have the opportunity to transparently approve or decline anything that changes it, also in advance. If it’s hours-based, there should be pre-established approval thresholds where it’s confirmed clearly at each stage.
Surprise bills are simply an unacceptable business practice, again IMHO
I will follow this thread, as someone who is EU based but not quite at the level to start charging for photoshoots - I’d love to check your portfolio, work so I can get an idea of what level of quality we’re talking about here.
I am just not confident enough to ask someone to pay…
so you did a job without first informing them of the cost…? well that wasn’t right, on both ends. but it does put you in a really hard bargening position
Your pricing sounds fine, their expectations of what a photographer costs not so much. It sounds like they only worked with amateurs before and are clueless about prices. 100€ or a dinner, lolz
Was the price unreasonable?
No. But the client never agreed to it either.
Do you not edit your pictures the way I do and do you only use presets?
No.
What would you recommend to do in that situation
Accept the price the client had in mind.
And in the future, make sure you are on the same page and in agreement on the price before you perform work for free.
Surely if the client made the booking without checking terms themselves they are implicitly agreeing to the businesses standard rates/terms etc.
Arguably yes. And certainly the client is partially at fault too for not getting on the same page about that beforehand.
But the client would argue that their perception of the business standard would be the lower pricing they got from these other photographers in that circle. And many jurisdictions have laws and judges that tend to side with consumer protection. In California, for example, many businesses are really careful to present the customer with a written quote of pricing, and to get a signature on that before doing anything. Caveat emptor is a thing too, but when it comes to a “they should have known better” situation, often it’s the business that’s primarily on the hook for having the responsibility of knowing better. Otherwise you open things up to predatory situations where a business charges what they want, hoping the client never asks first, and claims the client agreed to whatever their charge was going to be. It’s a lot easier for a court to just require that the business be upfront on pricing, and the business is screwed if they aren’t (an easy, objective, hard line decision); as opposed to having to research and evaluate if whatever surprise pricing was reasonable or not (a subjective decision with a lot of gray area).
If people are willing to pay your prices, they’re not unreasonable.
Some people will only pay bargain basement prices; others will pay top dollar (or £ or EUR) for a high quality product or service.
The only thing you did wrong here is not being transparent with them about your pricing at the outset.
Just because people pay it doesn’t mean it’s not unreasonable. People are desperate and will pay whatever they have to if they need it. However, this doesn’t apply as much to photography. Still 8k for a 30 min session is wildly unreasonable even if a billionaire forks it over.
Everything that I would recommend to prevent such a situation should have been done before the actual shooting. The first things to clarify before setting a date is a) What does the client want exactly? (Does she want the photos edited or does she want to edit them himself?) and b) What is the client willing to pay for the service she wants?
Do you know what photographers she worked with before? If yes, call them and ask about what they’ve billed her. And then go from there.
Do you have a website where clients will find your pricing structure?In the end, you have two possibilities:
- Tell her, that this is your usual pricing for this kind of project and that you expect her to pay the bill in full (she might not want to work with you again, obviously, and also get legal advice).
- Call the client and thell her that you are sorry for the inconvenience. This is your standard pricing, but you are willing to give her a discount. How much of a discount depends on your negotiating skills. ;) Maybe only send her the unedited pictures and remove the editing costs from your bill?
I think your prices aren’t unreasonable, but I expect people who have nothing to do with photography be shocked about how expensive it can be. And I guess there are a lot of photographers who are cheaper.
I will (usually) edit the pictures myself, but in the end I will do what my clients order. And clarify their order before the shooting, not afterwards. ;)