Democrats seek to reassure Europe about post-Trump America
Not going to read the article, but the only way to reassure Europe is with results. Get Trump out of office. Clean up the mess. That means prosecuting EVERYONE involved. Prosecute the people in the Epstein files. Prosecute every ICE member. Prosecute the Republicans that enabled this shit. Reverse what can still be reversed, or at least make plans to. And change your fucking constitution to actually have teeth and effective division of power.
Don’t just take back control and then act like it’s back to business as usual with all the changes kept in effect, no one punished, and MAGA allowed to organize once more.
How about they make post-Trump America happen first?
The US in its current form will (hopefully) not regain the trust it lost. They have shown that their checks and balances don’t work, the separation of powers was meaningless, they didn’t learn from history, and they’ll just keep going with fptp voting, gerrymandering, and general drift into fascism if Europe just gives them a pass.
You want back in? Make yourself a proper democracy. There’s a first time for everything. No electoral college, no voter suppression. Sounds impossible? … Yeah.
We’ll see you over in the Former Empire corner, yeah?
I’m fully convinced that the United States have nothing more than a controlled opposition at this point. It’s honestly hard to imagine a world in which an authoritarian government willingly gives up power through elections without any major upheaval. I’d personally want to see a Romanian scenario, but I fear the land of the free and home of the brave doesn’t have it in itself to get rid of a dictatorship.
or Donors/billionaires are freaked out right now and want to still do business in EU, and trotting out patsies in the DNC to say what they want to hear.
We will have proof when we have eaten the pudding surrounding it.
Even if Trump is gone in three years, the MAGA people are still there and so is Vance, Thiel, Musk, and others. That doesn’t sound very reassuring to me.
The billionaire is basically have everything locked in right now. They’ve even managed to just walk right into government institutions to f*** things up steal our data and fire people without the authority.
They’re going to go to war with us financially next.
There is only one solution to billionaires: they should not exist. However you want to understand this statement is correct.
That would be ideal.
IF the US survives Trump (we’ll see if he allows the midterms to happen) we still cannot allow another chance to be betrayed by a close ally. The MAGA cult will not evaporate even with a democrat president. Europe needs to focus on two main issues, energy and tech independence. At the same time we should try to eradicate the American military presence in Europe and bolster our own armies. An United Europe is impenatrable, both economically and militarily.
There needs to be a mass-deprogramming & reeducation campaign for MAGA cult members after this regime is gone. They need to understand the damage that Trump and the GOP has done was only possible because they blindly supported a pedophile demagogue.
All of the collaborators who facilitated the excesses of the regime must be put on trial, that includes Congress, Supreme Court, cabinet members, corporate media and billionaire donors. If they are not prosecuted they will take control again.
Eye for an eye is very biblical and perhaps the root cause of the regime’s brutality. So no. Better off focusing on the root cause of the societal decay of the last decades. Laws that are set up for oligarchs to circumvent and masses to be keep under control with debt and barriers to organize themselves.
The United American States is what gave us the US. Trump is already promising something like an impenatrable America, both economically and militarily.
The danger lies in giving in to that thought, for multiple reasons.
First of, the combined rest of the world is stronger, economically and militarily, if not the US or China alone. Investing so much in weapons that the EU is impenatrable will bancrupt the EU like it bancrupted the USSR.
Secondly, trying to be the dominating power will destroy our ability to win all the small countries as partners. Only seeking cooperation with the rest of the world will bring security.
Thirdly, it’s essentially a fascist mindset and will destroy the EU from within.
china is more of a regional power, they dont have enough to project far, and likely wont in the near future, just locally. They have internal problems of thier own as well, which is immediate.
China can destroy us economically.
Becoming impenetrable is defensive and not offensive. It is also needed, if you do not want to be bullied by the US or China. If you can be, then why would smaller countries want the EU as a partner.
The sum of all small countries is bigger than the US or China. Small countries want as much independence as the EU. That’s a goal that can be achieved together.
How could the EU become impenetrable? That’s an impossible goal. The US tries, with their golden dome. But in this world, security lies in MAD, mutual assured destruction.
How could the EU become impenetrable? That’s an impossible goal. The US tries, with their golden dome. But in this world, security lies in MAD, mutual assured destruction.
MAD is how you do it in a practical way and the EU lacks that ability besides France. It is certainly not assured enough to be a proper deterrent. Other then that a conventional force is needed to be able to deal with lower level threats. For that a bunch of military systems need to be set up, which do not use US tech(AWACS, anti submarine planes, spy satellites, communication satellites and a bunch more).
The sum of all small countries is bigger than the US or China. Small countries want as much independence as the EU. That’s a goal that can be achieved together.
If the US or China can bully an ally you rely on into giving you up, then you are not properly independent.
which do not use US tech
The US MIC was possible because other countries have kept US dollars which allowed the US to spend them twice, once to import products and once to pay engineers to develop military technology.
The EU can’t use their engineers to create cars and AWACS. Things would have to change massively to compete and develop everything twice, like North Korean levels of modesty in compensation for workers.
If the US or China can bully an ally you rely
Like Lemmy, don’t rely on a single country, and support the bullied. Of course, if the EU keeps silent, like with Venezuela, Kuba or Iran, countries will have to give in to the threats and actions.
The EU can’t use their engineers to create cars and AWACS. Things would have to change massively to compete and develop everything twice, like North Korean levels of modesty in compensation for workers.
Yes it can. There already is Swedens GlobalEye and if you not spend the money on American systems, you can built a decent European alternative. Something similar holds true for all sort of other weapon systems.
Of course, if the EU keeps silent, like with Venezuela, Kuba or Iran, countries will have to give in to the threats and actions.
There are 25,000 Cubans fighting for Russia against Ukraine. Iran is also openly supporting Russia in the war having send soldiers to Crimea and selling a lot of weapons to Russia. The response pro Venezuela should have been stronger, but they are also friends of Russia.
Yes it can. There already is Swedens GlobalEye
True for AWACS but that’s not what I meant. The existance of one European weapon system doesn’t proof that the resources exist for all systems. Germany builds their own tanks. Neither Sweden nor Germany can build all systems. Europe as a hole can, but that means other civilian projects can’t be built. And since the EU and the US stop cooperating, the US will also have to develop less.
if you not spend the money on American systems, you can built a decent European alternative
Sweden built the Gripen with an American engine. We can’t double all military processes in the west without repercussions.
they are also friends of Russia.
The more it would mean if we speak out against it. If we remain silent about an injustice because it is to our advantage then we can’t complain when the US end up bullying us to their advantage.
The irony is that Cubans have to work as mercenaries to make money because we allowed the US to claim Cuba for decades like Russia claims Ukraine.
That last sentence could be true, but if the US can’t keep national cohesion together the EU probably can’t either. One of our big problems is cultural diversity providing avenues for division to take root. The US is infinitely more homogeneous than the EU. I don’t think Europeans are prepared to act like a unified society outside of a few common interests. I still think they should try, but I also think that means something vastly different to citizens in the different nations of the EU.
Sorry yankees: Trump is a symptom, not a cause.
Exactly. If anything jabba the hut is the result of people being fed up from the entire corrupt political system.
When the glass is broken and trust is gone, it takes a lot if time, if any to heal. Europe should just go for strategic autonomy, in energy, defence, tech, anywhere. Then deal with whomever as equal and not as a subservient. I’m sure Democrats would not object that kind of relationship
Of course they’d object, they want vassals, not allies. Republicans are a whole lot more vocal and obvious about it.
It’s worth noting that everyday Dems often want very different things than the “leadership Dems” that are in power under corporate and foreign influence. I don’t want vassals - a tiny silver lining of Trump is American hegemony in decline. Thats only a good if Authoritarians don’t step into that gap. I hope EU can be the standard bearer and defender of liberal (as opposed to illiberal) democracy in the world until we get our shit together
Thats only a good if Authoritarians don’t step into that gap
No, it’s good even if authoritarians (thinking of China here) step into the gap. It’s hard for Europeans to properly appreciate how absurdly evil US hegemony is and has been, and how much blood is on their hands for supporting it/kowtowing to it over the years. I’d rather have China as the world hegemon than, say, France frankly, and that’s not out of my love for China; the EU has a lot of introspection to do if it wants to avoid America’s fate, and I find this narrative of the EU as the innocent victim unfairly bullied by big brother America/last bastion of human rights to be very counterproductive towards that end.
For a glimpse, see Hong Kong
First, this is a non-sequitur as there’s no direct relation between how China governs its territory and the kind of conditions it imposes/would impose on imperial vassals; by this logic Western (neo)colonialism must be “nice” and democratic because Western countries were until 2024 all democratic (hint: It fucking isn’t). Second, despite the authoritarianism Hong Kong has one of the highest standards of living in the world, higher even than mainland China. What exactly is your point here?
My point is that I think authoritarianism is worse than liberal democracy, even when flawed. The trade of individual autonomy and democracy in exchange for promises of stability, progress, and equitable distribution of wealth is compelling for some that believe all the promises - but I don’t believe in the intrinsic good of the State. Liberal Democracy’s hands aren’t clean by any stretch, but there are mechanisms for recourse by citizens. Governments always think they know best, but authoritarian states have too much concentrated power. That the trains run on time, or the DOW is over 50000, or quality of life for Hong Kong is better than Guangdong does not excuse state brutality and once power is concentrated, brutality by force and mental/social control efforts are inevitable.
To me anyways
Yeah exactly, when I say Democrats, it’s the establishment Democrats, not the average Democrat voters (at least, I hope so).
Economically the EU is an equal, the issue is military and overall cohesiveness. The EU needs to be able to act unilaterally in ways that are going to piss off it’s own member states. The challenge is creating a framework where that’s possible, without creating an unaccountable force, or constant bickering indecision.
So people joke about Obama getting the Nobel prize but it felt like it was the rest of the world rewarding the US for choosing sanity after 8 years of Bush.
There was a hope for things to get back to “normal”. Before then I remember Americans often wore Canadian flags cause the hatred was so high. I think people forget how badly the US fucked up then. (And this was the general feeling—not just the left who are well aware of the decades of problematic behaviour)
We’ve welcomed the US back once. Never again.
You keep fucking up the entire world because of your egos and your hate.
No “we’ve changed” or “we will change” rhetoric will work again until those who have caused this face consequences.
Fix yourselves before appealing for forgiveness.
I get it, we don’t deserve trust. What would you look for to decide we can be trusted again though? I’m worried we’d need to rewrite the constitution to put in serious guardrails of some sort. Congress and Judiciary were supposed to be the guardrail, and they’re failing pretty hard. What system can truly protect against bad actors with power?
What would you look for to decide we can be trusted again though?
A complete change in your mentality.
What system can truly protect against bad actors with power?
Education
Trust takes time. No set of laws can be trusted until we have seen them work in practice. It will take time.
Moving to a parliamentary system would be good, for example.
There are many systems that can work. I don’t think anyone in the rest of the world cares how you implement and safeguard the democracy. Just that you do it.
I think what is needed to repair relationships outward — and something that so many nonMAGA Americans lack — is humility. Look at the arrogance the UK had over Brexit and where they are today (albeit it could still get worse for them with reform). But they are moving slowly back to Europe and they will have a much lower standing for a very long time because of their utter stupidity. Thats what it will likely be, but amplified even more, for you guys. The trust is truly shattered.
Democrats seek to reassure Europe about post-Trump America
This whole thing is so awfully awkward and unreal. Maybe I’m being too cynical, but;
- If Democrats are trying to reassure Europe, that’s a very bad sign
- If they do that, it’s becasue they feel, need or want to use Europe to get some leverage against Trump
- Somehow they perceive that Europe can or should save US from itself
- They are asking Europe because there’s no-one else.
If anything, its actually a sign of how dire the situation is, because they fear there might not be a democracy left Post-Trump.
If there is anything I can read into this, it’s best if we all be prepared for the worst.
Especially, condidering UK send an aircraft carrier to Greenland in context of the Munich Sec Conference and that a noteworthy letter was send to UK & German newspapers, quote:
" (…), the complexity of threats demands a whole-of-society approach and an honest, continent-wide conversation with the public that defence cannot be the preserve of uniformed personnel alone. It is a task for each and every one of us."
the DNC wants to maintain the status quo and not lose elections to more “progressive candidates” so they want EU to bypass that somehow and keep thier positions(either through funding or lobbying certain states?, which they are desperate for donor money.)
they shouldnt have ENDED THE shutdown so soon, when they were gaining so much political capital from it, now they are seen nothing more than gop-lite.
If anything, its actually a sign of how dire the situation is, because they fear there might not be a democracy left Post-Trump.
The EU doesn’t speak out for Cuba. Biden lifted sanctions meaninglessly on Cuba in 2025, after he lost the election, and Trump could reinstantiate them.
Trump is just the bad cop in a good cop, bad cop situation. The situation is much, much more dire because there is not a democracy that could be destroyed.
Project 2025 was known and European media stayed silent about it instead of informing Americans. The EU doesn’t restrict US social media for its own citizens like they banned RT. Instead Britain and the EU are pushing hard for their own surveillance state.
only because PALINTIR has been trying to peddle its AI surveillance tech to EU since last year.
Only to make money and not to make the EU a more integrated part of the US empire?
The letter mentions this treaty. It feels a bit like a split of the EU that this is a bilateral agreement.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Trinity_House_Agreement
Interestingly there is no French or Italian version of the article, while this seems to be a major cooperation .
The treaty doesn’t mention anything specific whereas the Wikipedia article mentions
Surveillance flights by the German Armed Forces from Scotland (RAF Lossiemouth)
Which should be about
like the submarine cooperation with Norway, in German: https://marineforum.online/deutsch-norwegische-u-boot-kooperation/
It’s not only the Baltics that seems to be in danger.
Trump is the result of decades of continuity in U.S. foreign and domestic policy. He’s not an aberration. “Good cop, bad cop”, nobody’s buying it anymore.
Like a toxic ex going “but I’ve changed”…
