If you think Palestine is still fucked either way then choosing to empowerer Trump makes even less sense. I think it’s a fact that Trump will be far worse for Palestinians than Biden, but even if we assume they will both be just as terrible on this issue, Trump is also terrible on every issue. If your choice is terrible and completely terrible, logically you should go with terrible. The other choice is even worse.
How could trump be worse?what is worse than arming the Israelies while they engage in genocide? Unless you don’t believe that’s what is happening. In which case,you have been misinformed. Genocide is genocide. Why am I the asshole here for not wanting to vote for someone who is enabling a genocide? Why isn’t Biden the asshole for enabling the genocide or not stepping down?
ah, so the single-issue voter. actually it’s not even single-issue, that’s just giving up status quo in order to effectively vote for worse than status quo. that’s called having a narrow view on the world, you know the middle east isn’t the only thing that exists in american politics right? there are still other things to improve on rather than just saying “oh israel-palestine conflict is going to shit either way therefore why even bother, might as well fuck up every other political issue, it’s useless if we can’t have this one win”.
grow up, you’re effectively casting all your friends and loved ones into the flames with your stubbornness, and casting palestinians into the flames considering trump is going to rail way harder against palestine than biden does. it’s not like not voting means no palestinians die, why do you have this delusion that you have blood on your hands if you vote but no blood on your hands if you don’t. it helps nobody and improves nothing except your own ego because you get to say “oh well i didn’t vote for genocide!” even though you practically voted for more genocide.
It’s not my only issue with Biden, but it is my biggest and the fact that it doesn’t even seem to register as a problem for you is very telling. You don’t care about anything that’s happening to anyone outside of the US huh? Your world is that small? Get a grip. We all draw our lines in the sand somewhere and when the line is crossed, that’s usually the thing we’re going to yell about. I think “I can work with you on anything other than genocide related crimes” is pretty fucking lenient, don’t you?
alright then my guy, what does trump do better than biden that makes you want him to win instead? because you seem so happy to give trump an extra vote. what would trump do better outside of the US since that seems to be where your concern lies? how will not voting for biden achieve your goals and make the situation in palestine any better?
you seem to think that voting for biden is “working with him”, which is just plain delusional. that’s completely outside of the scope of general elections. you’re not relevant to biden, or any politicians, he doesn’t know you exist, don’t think of yourself as so important that you think you’re working with them. what you’re doing is casting a vote to lessen future pain.
if biden were the only candidate, if it were a 1 party state and the only person able to run was biden, then yeah i’d agree with you. voting means nothing. but that’s simply not the case. you are genuinely either stupid or evil if you’d rather give your vote for trump rather than swallow your pride and at least vote to maintain some semblance of liberty (at least what’s left of it). a world where democrats lose the election is a world where you won’t even have the right to criticize your president, nor your government’s genocide.
bottom line is by not participating in the 2 party system in the presidential election, you’re not somehow making a morally correct decision that means you have no blood on your hands. you WILL have blood on your hands if republicans win, no matter how much you try to convince yourself that you totally owned those genociders by basically voting for the worse genocider. your view is extremely short-sighted and you care about your own pride more than the rights of LGBT people, black & hispanic people, etc.
I don’t think trump does anything better than Biden and I’m not reading the rest of your shitty comment because you started out by putting words in my mouth. I never said that Trump did anything better than Biden. I don’t want Biden to be president. His actions have been disqualifying.
If you can’t see how Trump is worse than Biden I don’t know what to say. It should be self evident at this point that a second Trump presidency will be a disaster for the world. As far as Palestine goes, Biden has pissed off Netanyahu and there’s a whole diplomatic row unfolding right now because Biden said there has to be a two state solution and Netanyahu says no. I guess you’re unfamiliar with Trump somehow but based off his previous behavior he would be more likely to help Netanyahu and encourage him to do even worse things. Trump certainly wouldn’t be getting into a public spat where he’s insisting on a Palestinian state, he’s definitely not going to do anything to stop what Israel is doing, or even to discourage them.
I don’t believe this “row” with Netanyahu will amount to anything, which I am basing on Biden’s record of always backing Israel every single time. You and I agree about Trump. We’ve clearly come to different conclusions about Biden. I don’t think we are going to get any further in this conversation.
Also, the idea that Trump “certainly” wouldn’t get in a public spat when he is, in fact, Donald Trump and public spats are exactly his MO is fucking laughable.
I’m not saying Trump doesn’t get in public spats, just that he wouldn’t get into one with Netanyahu over Palestinian statehood. The idea of Trump arguing with Netanyahu in defense of the rights of Palestinians is absurd on its face.
Trump (to black Americans) in 2016: What do you have to lose?
You’re basically just spouting Trump talking points.
Trump would obviously not only support Israel’s position he would sell them more weapons…wouldn’t care at all about the Palestinian human rights angle and he would allow Russia to walk into Ukraine and that’s just the “foreign relations” plan…domestically, he’s planning on setting up concentration camps for the homeless and undocumented.
Okay. Gaza isn’t my only issue with Biden. And no Trump doesn’t align with me on those issues either, but if Trump doesn’t get my vote by default just because I dislike Biden, then the same should follow for Biden. I’m sorry that you don’t like how I, one person that you do not know, am planning to vote. However, I will not change my plans because you say I have to. You have not given me a reason to vote for Biden. Just reasons not to vote for Trump. And that’s not only not a winning strategy forever, but its getting fucking annoying at this point. Not a single person here has said been able to point to any actual thing that makes Trump better on this issue. Biden didn’t do anything to fix the issues with the court with the first two years that he had. He dropped the ball on student loan debt relief. I could give you other examples of my frustrations with Biden. But I’m not going to waste my time. Because you’ll just say “Trump will be worse, if you want change, vote for Dems.” But dems don’t make changes because they want to hold onto power. That is how they always operate in my opinion. You are free to feel differently, but I have based that opinion on 36 years of life and watching them operate. You won’t get the change you want out of democrats. You’ll get more of the same.
So please, stop telling people what they have to do with their votes. We don’t all agree that things are going so super, duper well right now. Dems don’t listen to progressives, there aren’t any parties on the actual left who can win, i have no one to vote for. And yes, I’m mad at democrats about it because they lie about being progressives. And I mean literally. Jon Fetterman ran a progressive campaign and now openly states that he’s not progressive and drapes himself in the Israeli flag so that he can get those sweet, sweet AIPAC dollars. But by all means, keep voting blue no matter who and tell yourself that your not like MAGA Republicans, because at least you have the illusion of choice.
But dems don’t make changes because they want to hold onto power. That is how they always operate in my opinion. You are free to feel differently, but I have based that opinion on 36 years of life and watching them operate. You won’t get the change you want out of democrats. You’ll get more of the same.
The reason they don’t make much change happen is much more complex than that, but you’re entitled to your opinion.
Other people have also lived for 30+ years and don’t have the same reductionist take, so like, that’s just like your opinion man.
So please, stop telling people what they have to do with their votes.
I don’t give a shit what you do with your vote, but if you want to be regarded as anything approaching reasonable, it makes no sense at all to say “oh it doesn’t matter at all which party I vote for because my exact preferences are not represented in this election”.
You have the freedom to be unreasonable, and I have the freedom to tell you that that’s exactly what you’re being.
Ultimately no politician alone will be able to change the things that need changing, but a couple of choice politicians in the right offices will go a long way toward making things markedly worse.
And dems will never give that to you. If they wanted to, they would have done so by now. But you’re entitled to you’re belief that I have simply thrown my hands up instead of wrestling with this question for months. Voting for Biden will just make life hell for different people. Not fewer, in my view.
So if you’re cool with me telling you that you’re acting like an asshole, then go ahead and tell me what to do
But don’t act surprised when people get pissed at you.
I think this reply got lost. It’s likely difficult to manage your inbox because you’re typing out walls of text to a dozen different accounts right now.
Also, if you can’t regard me as a reasonable person for not wanting to vote against my own beliefs and interests, then you absolutely do give a whole lot of shits about what I do with my vote. You give so many shits, that some people might even call it unreasonable that you can’t let a grown person make up their own mind.
You give so many shits, that some people might even call it unreasonable that you can’t let a grown person make up their own mind.
I really don’t give a shit as stated before. There is a reason why people like yourself get so absolutely blown in half by a simple meme like the one that started this shit fest of a thread…I personally think that it’s because there’s still a little part of you that still knows you’re behaving petulantly, and you think by typing out walls of text to strangers on the Internet in response, you’ll somehow be able to convince that part of you that you’re right.
EDIT: Yeah if the walls of text don’t do it, meaningless down votes definitely will. 😉
Not arming the Israeli’s and letting Iran try to start a war it cannot win, which would result in a domino effect of failed middle eastern states, tens of millions of deaths, and tens of millions of war refugees.
Oh but by all means burn the fucking planet down and destroy democracy for 350,000,000 Americans because you want everyone to know how super sad you are over 25,000 avoidable deaths.
Lol it’s really funny this imaginary scenario in that person’s head… Thinking that Israel killing tens of thousands today will somehow prevent future deaths that are impossible for us to predict. If I didn’t know any better, I’d call that IDF bootlicking.
And then they bombed the safe areas. Look it up. You’re wrong about this. The ICJ has agreed to continue the case. They are clearly convinced that there is a plausibility that Israel has committed genocide. Do you think you’re smarter than the 17 judges sitting on the ICJ for this case?
I will read it and see where my prediction of how the case would be disposed of on the pleadings was flawed.
In light of the high casualties, a preliminary injunction probably makes sense. I bet Israel is already in compliance with it. I’ll comment again after I read it this weekend.
The order, aside from jurisdiction and standing, makes two significant findings: that the humanitarian condition may likely deteriorate before there is a finding on the merits, leading to irreparable harm of the rights South Africa seeks to vitiate; and the second is that some of the allegations of proven could plausibly meet the definition of genocide or related crimes. That’s Paragraphs 54 and 72. That’s good enough for a preliminary injunctive order in any court.
Obviously you disagree but I think Israel is already in compliance with the order. Humanitarian corridors are open. Food is rolling in. Medicine rolling in. Bombings have slowed down. Civilian casualties have dropped off. Whether Israel is in compliance is not a factor in ordering the provisional measures. It only adopted a few of the numerous measures South Africa sought.
One major fact noted is that Israel is investigating and prosecuting its own citizens who have called for “extermination of Palestinians” and the like, for the crime of incitement. The Court commends Israel for doing so.
On the other hand, in Paragraph 82 they call on Hamas to release all hostages unconditionally. Obviously, Hamas will not comply.
Should probably give South Africa’s case a read as well. 84 pages of facts that are pretty damning for Israel that were convincing enough for these judges. Maybe your bias presented you from believing the facts before your eyes?
If you think Palestine is still fucked either way then choosing to empowerer Trump makes even less sense. I think it’s a fact that Trump will be far worse for Palestinians than Biden, but even if we assume they will both be just as terrible on this issue, Trump is also terrible on every issue. If your choice is terrible and completely terrible, logically you should go with terrible. The other choice is even worse.
How could trump be worse?what is worse than arming the Israelies while they engage in genocide? Unless you don’t believe that’s what is happening. In which case,you have been misinformed. Genocide is genocide. Why am I the asshole here for not wanting to vote for someone who is enabling a genocide? Why isn’t Biden the asshole for enabling the genocide or not stepping down?
ah, so the single-issue voter. actually it’s not even single-issue, that’s just giving up status quo in order to effectively vote for worse than status quo. that’s called having a narrow view on the world, you know the middle east isn’t the only thing that exists in american politics right? there are still other things to improve on rather than just saying “oh israel-palestine conflict is going to shit either way therefore why even bother, might as well fuck up every other political issue, it’s useless if we can’t have this one win”.
grow up, you’re effectively casting all your friends and loved ones into the flames with your stubbornness, and casting palestinians into the flames considering trump is going to rail way harder against palestine than biden does. it’s not like not voting means no palestinians die, why do you have this delusion that you have blood on your hands if you vote but no blood on your hands if you don’t. it helps nobody and improves nothing except your own ego because you get to say “oh well i didn’t vote for genocide!” even though you practically voted for more genocide.
It’s not my only issue with Biden, but it is my biggest and the fact that it doesn’t even seem to register as a problem for you is very telling. You don’t care about anything that’s happening to anyone outside of the US huh? Your world is that small? Get a grip. We all draw our lines in the sand somewhere and when the line is crossed, that’s usually the thing we’re going to yell about. I think “I can work with you on anything other than genocide related crimes” is pretty fucking lenient, don’t you?
alright then my guy, what does trump do better than biden that makes you want him to win instead? because you seem so happy to give trump an extra vote. what would trump do better outside of the US since that seems to be where your concern lies? how will not voting for biden achieve your goals and make the situation in palestine any better?
you seem to think that voting for biden is “working with him”, which is just plain delusional. that’s completely outside of the scope of general elections. you’re not relevant to biden, or any politicians, he doesn’t know you exist, don’t think of yourself as so important that you think you’re working with them. what you’re doing is casting a vote to lessen future pain.
if biden were the only candidate, if it were a 1 party state and the only person able to run was biden, then yeah i’d agree with you. voting means nothing. but that’s simply not the case. you are genuinely either stupid or evil if you’d rather give your vote for trump rather than swallow your pride and at least vote to maintain some semblance of liberty (at least what’s left of it). a world where democrats lose the election is a world where you won’t even have the right to criticize your president, nor your government’s genocide.
bottom line is by not participating in the 2 party system in the presidential election, you’re not somehow making a morally correct decision that means you have no blood on your hands. you WILL have blood on your hands if republicans win, no matter how much you try to convince yourself that you totally owned those genociders by basically voting for the worse genocider. your view is extremely short-sighted and you care about your own pride more than the rights of LGBT people, black & hispanic people, etc.
I don’t think trump does anything better than Biden and I’m not reading the rest of your shitty comment because you started out by putting words in my mouth. I never said that Trump did anything better than Biden. I don’t want Biden to be president. His actions have been disqualifying.
If you can’t see how Trump is worse than Biden I don’t know what to say. It should be self evident at this point that a second Trump presidency will be a disaster for the world. As far as Palestine goes, Biden has pissed off Netanyahu and there’s a whole diplomatic row unfolding right now because Biden said there has to be a two state solution and Netanyahu says no. I guess you’re unfamiliar with Trump somehow but based off his previous behavior he would be more likely to help Netanyahu and encourage him to do even worse things. Trump certainly wouldn’t be getting into a public spat where he’s insisting on a Palestinian state, he’s definitely not going to do anything to stop what Israel is doing, or even to discourage them.
I don’t believe this “row” with Netanyahu will amount to anything, which I am basing on Biden’s record of always backing Israel every single time. You and I agree about Trump. We’ve clearly come to different conclusions about Biden. I don’t think we are going to get any further in this conversation.
Also, the idea that Trump “certainly” wouldn’t get in a public spat when he is, in fact, Donald Trump and public spats are exactly his MO is fucking laughable.
I’m not saying Trump doesn’t get in public spats, just that he wouldn’t get into one with Netanyahu over Palestinian statehood. The idea of Trump arguing with Netanyahu in defense of the rights of Palestinians is absurd on its face.
Trump (to black Americans) in 2016: What do you have to lose?
You’re basically just spouting Trump talking points.
Trump would obviously not only support Israel’s position he would sell them more weapons…wouldn’t care at all about the Palestinian human rights angle and he would allow Russia to walk into Ukraine and that’s just the “foreign relations” plan…domestically, he’s planning on setting up concentration camps for the homeless and undocumented.
So he would do what Biden is doing but more… Justify voting for him however you want. Biden is just as supportive of Israel as Trump would be.
Exactly…so that’s why Trump is worse for everything including the Israel issue.
Okay. Gaza isn’t my only issue with Biden. And no Trump doesn’t align with me on those issues either, but if Trump doesn’t get my vote by default just because I dislike Biden, then the same should follow for Biden. I’m sorry that you don’t like how I, one person that you do not know, am planning to vote. However, I will not change my plans because you say I have to. You have not given me a reason to vote for Biden. Just reasons not to vote for Trump. And that’s not only not a winning strategy forever, but its getting fucking annoying at this point. Not a single person here has said been able to point to any actual thing that makes Trump better on this issue. Biden didn’t do anything to fix the issues with the court with the first two years that he had. He dropped the ball on student loan debt relief. I could give you other examples of my frustrations with Biden. But I’m not going to waste my time. Because you’ll just say “Trump will be worse, if you want change, vote for Dems.” But dems don’t make changes because they want to hold onto power. That is how they always operate in my opinion. You are free to feel differently, but I have based that opinion on 36 years of life and watching them operate. You won’t get the change you want out of democrats. You’ll get more of the same.
So please, stop telling people what they have to do with their votes. We don’t all agree that things are going so super, duper well right now. Dems don’t listen to progressives, there aren’t any parties on the actual left who can win, i have no one to vote for. And yes, I’m mad at democrats about it because they lie about being progressives. And I mean literally. Jon Fetterman ran a progressive campaign and now openly states that he’s not progressive and drapes himself in the Israeli flag so that he can get those sweet, sweet AIPAC dollars. But by all means, keep voting blue no matter who and tell yourself that your not like MAGA Republicans, because at least you have the illusion of choice.
The reason they don’t make much change happen is much more complex than that, but you’re entitled to your opinion.
Other people have also lived for 30+ years and don’t have the same reductionist take, so like, that’s just like your opinion man.
I don’t give a shit what you do with your vote, but if you want to be regarded as anything approaching reasonable, it makes no sense at all to say “oh it doesn’t matter at all which party I vote for because my exact preferences are not represented in this election”.
You have the freedom to be unreasonable, and I have the freedom to tell you that that’s exactly what you’re being.
Ultimately no politician alone will be able to change the things that need changing, but a couple of choice politicians in the right offices will go a long way toward making things markedly worse.
And dems will never give that to you. If they wanted to, they would have done so by now. But you’re entitled to you’re belief that I have simply thrown my hands up instead of wrestling with this question for months. Voting for Biden will just make life hell for different people. Not fewer, in my view.
So if you’re cool with me telling you that you’re acting like an asshole, then go ahead and tell me what to do But don’t act surprised when people get pissed at you.
I think this reply got lost. It’s likely difficult to manage your inbox because you’re typing out walls of text to a dozen different accounts right now.
Also, if you can’t regard me as a reasonable person for not wanting to vote against my own beliefs and interests, then you absolutely do give a whole lot of shits about what I do with my vote. You give so many shits, that some people might even call it unreasonable that you can’t let a grown person make up their own mind.
I really don’t give a shit as stated before. There is a reason why people like yourself get so absolutely blown in half by a simple meme like the one that started this shit fest of a thread…I personally think that it’s because there’s still a little part of you that still knows you’re behaving petulantly, and you think by typing out walls of text to strangers on the Internet in response, you’ll somehow be able to convince that part of you that you’re right.
EDIT: Yeah if the walls of text don’t do it, meaningless down votes definitely will. 😉
Not arming the Israeli’s and letting Iran try to start a war it cannot win, which would result in a domino effect of failed middle eastern states, tens of millions of deaths, and tens of millions of war refugees.
Oh but by all means burn the fucking planet down and destroy democracy for 350,000,000 Americans because you want everyone to know how super sad you are over 25,000 avoidable deaths.
The fuck? So just let Israel kill civilians. Cool. I was wrong. You’re not a psychopath. You’re someone who would have gone along with the Nazis.
Lol it’s really funny this imaginary scenario in that person’s head… Thinking that Israel killing tens of thousands today will somehow prevent future deaths that are impossible for us to predict. If I didn’t know any better, I’d call that IDF bootlicking.
No you are incorrect. The Nazis didn’t warn anyone before doing actual carpet bombing of civilians.
Israel warns people before it bombs. Look it up.
And then they bombed the safe areas. Look it up. You’re wrong about this. The ICJ has agreed to continue the case. They are clearly convinced that there is a plausibility that Israel has committed genocide. Do you think you’re smarter than the 17 judges sitting on the ICJ for this case?
I will read it and see where my prediction of how the case would be disposed of on the pleadings was flawed.
In light of the high casualties, a preliminary injunction probably makes sense. I bet Israel is already in compliance with it. I’ll comment again after I read it this weekend.
“I’ll bet Israel is already in compliance with it.” They aren’t. Which is why the court needed to issue preliminary orders at all.
The order, aside from jurisdiction and standing, makes two significant findings: that the humanitarian condition may likely deteriorate before there is a finding on the merits, leading to irreparable harm of the rights South Africa seeks to vitiate; and the second is that some of the allegations of proven could plausibly meet the definition of genocide or related crimes. That’s Paragraphs 54 and 72. That’s good enough for a preliminary injunctive order in any court.
Obviously you disagree but I think Israel is already in compliance with the order. Humanitarian corridors are open. Food is rolling in. Medicine rolling in. Bombings have slowed down. Civilian casualties have dropped off. Whether Israel is in compliance is not a factor in ordering the provisional measures. It only adopted a few of the numerous measures South Africa sought.
One major fact noted is that Israel is investigating and prosecuting its own citizens who have called for “extermination of Palestinians” and the like, for the crime of incitement. The Court commends Israel for doing so.
On the other hand, in Paragraph 82 they call on Hamas to release all hostages unconditionally. Obviously, Hamas will not comply.
Saw you talking shit in another thread. You ever get around to reading this? Or maybe you’re too afraid to realize that you’re wrong.
I sure did. I even replied to you about it. What parts jump out at you as significant?
Should probably give South Africa’s case a read as well. 84 pages of facts that are pretty damning for Israel that were convincing enough for these judges. Maybe your bias presented you from believing the facts before your eyes?
I did. 70 of the pages are circular reasoning and the worst allegations are attributed to “reports.”
The only question it raised in my mind is why is South Africa is doing Iran’s bidding.