I'm really sorry to ask but at this moment my gf and me are personally still 274 euros short for rent this month 😟 :sad_cat:
It been a rough month.. Luckily all server bills are paid for so thats the biggest part ❤️
If you can miss something, any bit would help out a lot
https://paypal.me/stuxOS
https://patreon.com/mstdn
https://ko-fi.com/mstdn
https://bunq.me/stuxhost
https://stux.me/donate
https://liberapay.com/mstdn
Boost would also be appricated a lot :blobsnuggle: 💕
Please, tell me how “paying for hardware costs is enough”…
The core argument here is should there be an expectation that donations should cover admins labor costs.
Personally, if an instance is run off of donations, then it’s a nice to have. As an admin, you shouldn’t have that expectation. If you no longer want to volunteer your time, then don’t. Shut the instance down, find someone to help you maintain the instance, or pass the instance off to someone else.
I’m also okay with paid instances and admins trying to make a reasonable salary or even making additional profit as long as it’s transparent to the users. It’s their choice to charge, it’s our choice to pay.
Overall, instances should be run by a group of volunteers, not a single individual. Otherwise, the long term viability of the instance is questionable.
This is one of the things that make me think the current “fediverse” isn’t going to be its final form. It’s a good stepping stone, but users and communities being locked to a single instance will become a bugbear sooner rather than later.
this is how it was in the BBS days. We volunteered our time to run the boards because we enjoyed it and had the hardware. I covered the telco costs and electricity because i could, and enjoyed providing the space for my friends. When it stopped being feasible you passed the torch. There’s always someone else with the interest and the desire and the means to be in charge for a while!
There were pay bbs’ and i just didn’t use em cuz i was already at my limit paying for two phone lines and hardware.
I don’t mind pitching in now and then but I don’t feel like i owe any of the admins anything beyond gratitude.
My local Madison insurance is forming a steering committee and has created an LLC. (I’m a member of the committee.) We will solicit donations, because mostly it has been one guy paying for a small regional instance of about 100 AU.
We think of it like public broadcasting, like PBS. I will be happy to kick in a few dollars per month to pay for it. We have contests, online meetups, and other fun. It’s not just Mastodon, it’s an active regional online community, and it’s worth it.
(I also donate to my Lemmy instance, because it’s worth it too!)
expectation that donations should cover admins labor costs
Not quite that. The argument is that admins shouldn’t be treated as a disposable entity who don’t need any money just because they are not directly asking for it.
It’s a “I want you to want to do the dishes” kind of thing.
Shut the instance down, find someone to help you maintain the instance, or pass the instance off to someone else.
Easier said than done. We already have a long list of instances that disappear suddenly because the admins burned out, and I have had long discussions with admins from other instances who keep begging for more donations every month instead of just saying “you know what? You don’t want to help me, so I don’t owe your lot anything”.
Mastodon because it is the largest number of instances and users, but the principle is the same.
It hasn’t happened with Lemmy yet because this subset of the Fediverse is ridiculously small compared to Mastodon/Pixelfed
You of all people here should know that the cost of running the service is not the real issue. Even if Mastodon takes 3x as much hardware to run as Lemmy, the cost of hardware is still pennies per user.
You are the one who brought the size of the platform as a reason for costs not being an issue here compared to Mastodon, so I assumed you meant that having more users would mean more costs for the admins?
Or do you mean that with more instances, there is a higher chance of some admin having issues covering the costs?
Mastodon is also an ultra-heavyweight in terms of compute resources it consumes per daily active user served. This is one reason (among multiple) that I would never run Mastodon as an ActivityPub microblogging instance.
Have you tried running any of the alternatives for more than a few hundred users?
Mastodon is bad for small and single-user instances because it wasn’t designed to serve so few people. Once it starts growing beyond a certain level of activity, most of your overhead is on sidekiq/redis side of things.
I’ve seen the Pleroma devs openly saying that their service can not handle more than 20k users, because they rely on the database to build the timeline and they don’t have a strong caching system.
So yeah, there are a bunch of tradeoffs and Mastodon is not trying to optimize for anything in particular. But once it reaches a certain size the operational cost (per user) does go down.
Well it’s not easy. They are unsung heroes. They aren’t the only volunteers in this world. Do you think the people in our communities volunteering to pick up trash or people at homeless shelters volunteering are requesting compensation or a pat on the back? Honestly, there’s more than enough instances and volunteers to host those instances.
And just to clarify, I do think our admins deserve a pat on the back and donations. I am eternally grateful, but they shouldn’t resent their community for not donating to them.
The core argument here is should there be an expectation that donations should cover admins labor costs.
Personally, if an instance is run off of donations, then it’s a nice to have. As an admin, you shouldn’t have that expectation. If you no longer want to volunteer your time, then don’t. Shut the instance down, find someone to help you maintain the instance, or pass the instance off to someone else.
I’m also okay with paid instances and admins trying to make a reasonable salary or even making additional profit as long as it’s transparent to the users. It’s their choice to charge, it’s our choice to pay.
Overall, instances should be run by a group of volunteers, not a single individual. Otherwise, the long term viability of the instance is questionable.
This is one of the things that make me think the current “fediverse” isn’t going to be its final form. It’s a good stepping stone, but users and communities being locked to a single instance will become a bugbear sooner rather than later.
this is how it was in the BBS days. We volunteered our time to run the boards because we enjoyed it and had the hardware. I covered the telco costs and electricity because i could, and enjoyed providing the space for my friends. When it stopped being feasible you passed the torch. There’s always someone else with the interest and the desire and the means to be in charge for a while!
There were pay bbs’ and i just didn’t use em cuz i was already at my limit paying for two phone lines and hardware.
I don’t mind pitching in now and then but I don’t feel like i owe any of the admins anything beyond gratitude.
My local Madison insurance is forming a steering committee and has created an LLC. (I’m a member of the committee.) We will solicit donations, because mostly it has been one guy paying for a small regional instance of about 100 AU.
We think of it like public broadcasting, like PBS. I will be happy to kick in a few dollars per month to pay for it. We have contests, online meetups, and other fun. It’s not just Mastodon, it’s an active regional online community, and it’s worth it.
(I also donate to my Lemmy instance, because it’s worth it too!)
I love this.
Is it an Australian instance? whats the domain?
100 active users, sorry
Not quite that. The argument is that admins shouldn’t be treated as a disposable entity who don’t need any money just because they are not directly asking for it.
It’s a “I want you to want to do the dishes” kind of thing.
Easier said than done. We already have a long list of instances that disappear suddenly because the admins burned out, and I have had long discussions with admins from other instances who keep begging for more donations every month instead of just saying “you know what? You don’t want to help me, so I don’t owe your lot anything”.
Are those Lemmy instances, or other software like Mastodon?
Mastodon because it is the largest number of instances and users, but the principle is the same. It hasn’t happened with Lemmy yet because this subset of the Fediverse is ridiculously small compared to Mastodon/Pixelfed
I’ve also heard that Lemmy is cheaper to run than Mastodon
https://jlai.lu/comment/13035055
You of all people here should know that the cost of running the service is not the real issue. Even if Mastodon takes 3x as much hardware to run as Lemmy, the cost of hardware is still pennies per user.
You are the one who brought the size of the platform as a reason for costs not being an issue here compared to Mastodon, so I assumed you meant that having more users would mean more costs for the admins?
Or do you mean that with more instances, there is a higher chance of some admin having issues covering the costs?
The latter.
Mastodon is also an ultra-heavyweight in terms of compute resources it consumes per daily active user served. This is one reason (among multiple) that I would never run Mastodon as an ActivityPub microblogging instance.
Have you tried running any of the alternatives for more than a few hundred users?
Mastodon is bad for small and single-user instances because it wasn’t designed to serve so few people. Once it starts growing beyond a certain level of activity, most of your overhead is on sidekiq/redis side of things.
I’ve seen the Pleroma devs openly saying that their service can not handle more than 20k users, because they rely on the database to build the timeline and they don’t have a strong caching system.
So yeah, there are a bunch of tradeoffs and Mastodon is not trying to optimize for anything in particular. But once it reaches a certain size the operational cost (per user) does go down.
Well it’s not easy. They are unsung heroes. They aren’t the only volunteers in this world. Do you think the people in our communities volunteering to pick up trash or people at homeless shelters volunteering are requesting compensation or a pat on the back? Honestly, there’s more than enough instances and volunteers to host those instances.
And just to clarify, I do think our admins deserve a pat on the back and donations. I am eternally grateful, but they shouldn’t resent their community for not donating to them.