- cross-posted to:
- futurology@futurology.today
- cross-posted to:
- futurology@futurology.today
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Neat.
Remind me to check back in 5 years to see if this ever actually materializes.
Narrator: It didn’t.
No spoiler warnings?
Sorry, I thought we’d all already seen this dozens of times before.
Well, I’m still waiting for the graphene solar panels, cold fusion, flying cars, drone deliveries, metal nanoparticle engines, healing nano bots and what not.
I wonder if we’re going to build a Dyson sphere before some of those other things become a reality.
Drone deliveries seemed promising with Amazon, but the core company is so toxic that any tangible product that didn’t come from Lab126 is doomed. Zipline actually has a shot and is actively operating at a massive scale in Rwanda.
@ooli tl/Dr "Photoncycle
Brandtzaeg holds up a chalk-looking substance: “With this, you can store electricity 20 times as densely as in a lithium battery.”“We’re locking up the hydrogen molecules in a solid to basically fix them. We’re using a reversible, high-temperature fuel cell, so we’re assisting a fuel cell which both can produce hydrogen and electricity in the same cell,” he says.
That means no need to cool the hydrogen down, making it non-flammable and giving it a higher density than an ion-lithium battery"
I wonder what’s the volumetric energy density, historically that has been a bigger issue than gravimetric energy density.
Good question, this article is pretty fluffy, not a lot of hard data. Reads kind of like a fluffed up press release honestly.
This was totally a fluff investment article for funding.
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Hmmm… it does it automatically for me when I reply. I’m on mbin/kbin
According to their site:
A storage system of 3 m3 can store up to 10,000 kWh of energy
So about 3.33 MWh per cubic meter, 3.33 kWh per liter, or 3.33 Wh per cubic centimeter.
Hmm, if that’s correct, that’s even higher than liquid hydrogen, which would be really impressive.
Edit: Looks like their gravimetric energy density is 3.5kWh/kg
Edit 2: here’s a comparison for batteries
Since it’s solid hydrogen I think it’s to be expected, however I didn’t see any information regarding energy losses which I imagine would be quite high when you have those kinds of cooling requirements.
This is why I hate marketing pushes. If they’re a good-faith business, the efficiency needs to be within shooting distance of reasonable against costs. But as we learned from the artificial meat industry (that ultimately admitted we’ve already probably reached lifetime price/quality/scale limits from the methodologies they’re using) brutal honesty doesn’t get you investors.
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Thats in the ballpark of a year of usage from a household. Neat if true.
The article is light on details, but it claims they’re storing the hydrogen as a solid - not as a gas. Solids are generally about a thousand times more compact than a gas.
That’s hardly a revolutionary thing - there are hydrogen powered cars on the road and those don’t use hydrogen as a gas either. Those cars don’t make much sense compared to lithium, but mostly only because there’s almost nowhere in the world you buy hydrogen for your car. That’s not an issue if you’re producing your own hydrogen at home.
They don’t? When the Toyota hydrogen cars were introduced here around 2015, one of the issues were that a full tank of gas would dilute through the tank walls within a week. From the marketing material of the latest Toyota Mirai, it seems that they still use Hydrogen stored in gas form, boasting improvements in a 3-layer tank that is tested for 235% of the pressure that the gas is stored at, compared to 150% for regular gas containers.
Hydrogen really really doesn’t want to be solid, so doing that requires extremely low temperatures. Seems pretty cool, but inconvenient.
I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again: most new hydrogen technology is snake oil.
Its main source right now is as a byproduct to petrochemical processing, so a lot of the motivation behind it is really about maintaining these production lines, rather than “going green”.
Some things do require hydrogen, eg science applications. Hydrogen can be made using green electricity, but the energy cost is incredibly high. In order to fulfill just the things that require hydrogen, where there is no other alternative, we would need 3x the global renewable capacity solely dedicated to hydrogen production. If we start adding mass transport into that mix, or things like this hydrogen heating system, then we’re only exacerbating the problem.
We need our renewable electricity to power things that already use electricity. We don’t have enough capacity to be pouring it away into all the potential uses for hydrogen - which are often far less efficient. You lose so much energy creating hydrogen (as well as losses due to leaks) that you may as well just power it with electricity directly.
There could not have put up a bigger sign saying, “I didn’t bother to read the article.”
Otherwise I don’t disagree with most of what you’re claiming. But most of the problems you posed do not even apply to this relatively new system.
Lol you caught me out, I skimmed over most of the article. I’ve also realised later down the thread that one of my main sources actually includes hydrogen for heating as a viable use case.
I still stand by my claim that most hydrogen consumption proposals are snake oil, which would be better served by using electricity directly (particularly in transport), but perhaps this could be good.
Yet in some places there’s an excess of wind production at times and it’s economically viable to throw it into hydrogen and ammonia production. Do you think Maersk is designing ammonia powered ships for nothing?
https://hydrogenisland.dk/en https://www.maersk.com/news/articles/2021/02/23/maersk-backs-plan-to-build-europe-largest-green-ammonia-facility
Production and consumption are two different things. We need more green hydrogen production (currently at 0.1% of all hydrogen production), and we need to heavily tax black and brown hydrogen to balance the environmental cost against the low price of dirty production.
With hydrogen consumption, we already have a significant demand for scientific and other uses that have no alternative. This currently relies on black and brown hydrogen, but will eventually need to be fulfilled by green hydrogen. If we throw anything and everything that could use hydrogen on top of that, then we’ll be using fossil fuels for even longer while we build enough renewable generation capacity for it all to be provided by green hydrogen.
Also, the vast majority use scenarios proposed for hydrogen could be fulfilled directly by electricity at a much greater overall efficiency. Maybe hydrogen would be cheaper right now, while it’s all produced by petrochemicals, but when you factor in the cost of green hydrogen the long term projections simply do not work.
Do you think Maersk is designing ammonia powered ships for nothing?
I think Maersk is designing ammonia powered ships because they’re not far removed from conventional ICE’s, which they’re already proficient in. They’re less concerned with what is the best solution overall, but which is the most profitable to them right now.
I don’t want my house to be self-sufficient. I want my street and neighborhood to be self-sufficient. I already use my neighbors excess solar for reasonable prices.
My city wants to be off natural gas in 2030 and my neighborhood is in the pilot to transition first. I don’t necessarily want a huge heat pump attached to my house, and I don’t want a huge energy storage solution in my small garden.
There is city land around our housing block with plenty of room for a solution that can serve the whole street. I hope the city is going to propose something like that for us.
Agreed. Not that i dislike people doing stuff by themself on a small scale, but i really wish the focus would be more on larger scale projects and giving people easy access to invest in those.
Dont make everyone get a small solar panel and a tiny battery in their house. Let them invest in something like a large wind turbine in their area and maybe directly reap some of those benefits.
How far way is that city land? When a house has a natural gas explosion, it takes out the house. When you have a hydrogen explosion it potentially could take out the block.
This will hopefully be something like district heating, so a central heat pump that distributes hot water. I don’t think hydrogen in on the table. They could add a flow battery to capture more solar energy locally but I don’t think that’ll be on the cards early on.
But in reality it’ll probably be a heat pump per home and a big energy bill for us. Our street was built over 50 years ago when natural gas was plenty and cheap so insulation wasn’t much of a concern. We’ve added insulation under the floors and in the walls, but it’s never going to be as well insulated as a modern home.
They don’t actually say what the efficiency of it is, only that the inneficiency is mainly heat and “70% of home energy needs are for heat” which makes sense in Scandinavia but makes less and less sense the further South you are, plus it massivelly depends on being able to capture and use that heat (can you use it for cooking or only for environmental heating?).
Ultimatelly efficiency and price are what makes almost all the difference.
That said, I hope this turns out to be a proper solution: we definitelly need home energy storage solutions which have much higher energy density and lower cost per mWh that the ones we have now.
Their stated goal is literally to sell these in areas where homes need stored energy from solar to heat their homes.
There is no single system that will solve all our energy problems.
We already have efficient enough solar panels to make our homes self sufficient, we just can’t afford to buy them.
Even if we could, the power supply industry would see it happening, bribe and persuade the government to make it illegal to go off grid (I’m sure their solicitors would come up with “good” reasons that we should be stopped), to save their poor little shareholders.
No way will they go down without a fight. Would I love to go off grid? Sure. If I had a few grand of spending money I could easily do it. But that’s just one person, no way they’d let the entire country do it.
This is just storage. The article describes that the battery will use nearby solar panel for electricity.
There’s a very good reason you don’t want the entire country to go off-grid, and that net-metering is a plague that only serves as a wealth transfer from the poor to the rich.
A large chunk of electric costs are fixed costs. Wiring, power station upkeep, more wiring, transformers, storm damage, etc. Whether you personally use twice or half as much power as the median household does not matter for this. So every net-metered kWh you send on the grid, everybody ELSE ends up ponying up the infrastructure costs for (nevermind the enormous production-side costs of fighting against the duck curve).
A partial solution to make this fairer is therefore to either tax solar installations, use non-net-metering (with digital meters), or make grid connectivity a fixed cost in the electric bill.For people who are completely off-grid (meaning not only do they not pull any electricity from the grid ever, they are not connected AT ALL and therefore do not incur infrastructure cost on everyone else), it’s not as bad but sill not great because the grid operates on economies of scale. So in (semi-)urban areas it’s still a net loss for society when someone goes off-grid.
We are 90% there already. In many states, solar panels and usage have extra taxes. Most solar installations are grid tied and electricity sale prices to the company are fixed at a small fraction of their sale prices from those companies. Worse, if power goes out, you can’t use solar to stay electrified because electricity would leak out and potentially electrocute nearby line men.
Ever hear of a power invertor and an interlock switch? You’re only partially right.
All mains connected solar has an inverter. Hell, most wind is part or fully converted, to smooth out the raw waveform, and thus is inverter driven.
Where I’m from your “interlock switch” would be called “island mode”. It can be a thing, but distribution network operators have a legal obligation to maintain supply (or else they face harsh financial penalties) and as such they are reluctant to allow even the possibility of unintentional backfeed to their network, especially when they need to work quickly to keep supplies up. Safely regulating every single household is just too burdensome, not without extensive modification that no one wants to pay for.
Worse, if power goes out, you can’t use solar to stay electrified because electricity would leak out and potentially electrocute nearby line men.
Your info is a bit out of date. With a single battery you can use nearly any solar system to generate and consume that energy during a grid outage. With a couple brands of gear (such as Enphase IQ8) you don’t even need any battery to generate and consume energy from solar during a grid outage. The term to look for for batteryless is called “self grid forming”.
Grid forming typically refers to inverters connected to a large electricity network. What you’re talking about is islanding, ie running a system separate to the grid when it would normally be grid following. The principles are similar, in that both involve using internal voltage measurements to control the generation output (rather than externally chasing the grid voltage), but the practical nature is different - grid forming systems have to deal with large fluctuations from the network, well beyond what you would see in a domestic system. The terminologies overlap a lot, but grid forming specifically refers to large scale systems and more complicated networks.
You know what else is a solid form of hydrogen?
Ice.
I wish they went into more deatil about what kind of solid fuel cell system they’re working with - they say they’re trapping hydrogen molecules in some kind of molecular lattice, i.e. a crystal of some sort perhaps?
Anyway, I hate patents but understand why you need them… They just seems to slow down progress.
Patents trade public disclosure of technology for a limited time exclusive use of the technology. Without them companies are less likely to publicly disclose any technologies they develop.
Never thought about it that way but it is an excellent policy. Thank You.
Now if only we could get the goddamn Mickey Mouse in public domanin.
The idea/spirit of patents is a good one.
It enables generic medicine - as patented medicine needs to publicly disclose methods. It also allows the public to know what is in the patented product because it is public info.
It also makes iteration easier, as everyone can build off and on top of the patent info.
However, patent abuse is a real issue. Using patents to stifle others innovation and create monopolies. Also patents that come about from publicly funded research often give private companies exclusive rights to profit from work funded by the public.
Mickey mouse is copyright, which is a different beast. It’s also good because it protects people producing easily copied work such as writing, music and images. However, the mouse has lobbied his way into making the copyright protection excessively long. It should be much shorter, 30 years since publication would be reasonable - it would be a tremendous victory if we got it down to 50.
Next year (1st january 2024), it’ll be in the US (but just the first version from Steamboat Willie and The Gallopin’ Gaucho)
I dont see any electrical units in this article
Watt?? That’s a heck of an ohmission.
Well don’t get all amped up about it; you’ve gotta stay grounded.
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Take my upvote and leave. >:(
Why such resistance to comedy?
If you get all amped up about it, it just induces more jokes.
Time to conduct these jokesters out of here…
Maybe could transform your behavior into something mho productive?
I’ll go isolate myself in a field.
It helps others to resist the current flow if you illuminate others instead of shunting yourself.
-“Leave? Me? Never!”
Resists.
The company’s website quotes a storage density of 3.5 kWh/kg and a storage system taking up 3 cubic meters beving able to store 100,000 kWh: https://www.photoncycle.com/technology
I tried to find the patent but it sounds like the application process isn’t complete yet.
These are the kind of claims you hear from a startup seeking its next round of funding. I’d take it with a huge grain of salt.
I’d take it with an amount of salt resembling the Dead Sea. This is absolutely fake.
the numbers do seem absurdly high. That’s 5 times higher energy density than the current state-of-the-art
This is great and a step in the right direction, roll on self-sufficient streets, villages, and towns.
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