They’re a terrorist organisation and use terrorist methods. They don’t even care if Palestinians get killed. Can’t believe you’re equating them with Nelson Mandela 😂
Yep. Him and Winnie were infamous for putting tyres around the necks of their victims, filling the tyres with petrol, then lighting em up. Amnesty international wouldn’t go near him for a very long time. This came up in my Facebook memories a couple of days ago, the dude was a monster. Personally, I don’t think the ends justified the means, but I know they did for many, and I know for even more they don’t know the whole story…
It seems his wife Winnie was openly advocating for it while Mandela was in prison but I can’t find him associating with it.
Necklacing was used by the black community to punish its members who were perceived as collaborators with the apartheid government.[2] Necklacing was primarily used on black police informants; the practice was often carried out in the name of the struggle, although the executive body of the African National Congress (ANC), the most broadly supported South African opposition movement, condemned it.[3][4] In 1986, Winnie Mandela, then-wife of the imprisoned Nelson Mandela, and who herself had endured torture and four imprisonments to a total of two years,[5] stated, “With our boxes of matches, and our necklaces, we shall liberate this country”, which was widely seen as an explicit endorsement of necklacing.[6][7] This caused the ANC to initially distance itself from her,[8] although she later took on a number of official positions within the party.[8]
Do you have the actual list that shows this is part of their current “list of demands”?
I realize that was part of the Hamas charter, but that’s a different beast than what sounds like their current list of demands. This would be an example of a ludicrous demand that is just for show rather than a serious negotiation.
They want a ceasefire, the blockade to be loosened and the release of all Palestinian prisoners in Israel. All things that shouldn’t need even need negotiation to happen in a non-Apartheid state.
The Hamas leadership has said that the objectives of the attacks are ending “Israeli violations”, securing the release of Palestinian prisoners, and “returning to the project of establishing a state”
Israeli violations can be understood to main airstrikes and other military action against Gaza, though it’s unclear if it includes the blockade.
Unfortunately you’re right, it doesn’t say a whole lot.
While Hamas may appear to have fulfilled its declared short-term goals of deterring Israeli violations of Al-Aqsa Mosque and taking hostages to bargain for the release of Palestinian political prisoners held in Israeli jails, it does not appear to have a long-term end game.
and later
Three days into Hamas’s surprising and overwhelming attack, it is not clear what its end game is and what it can do to reap long-term benefits. Its priority has seemed to be to take both military and civilian hostages to help deter aggressive Israeli retaliation and later exchange them for Palestinian prisoners in Israeli jails.
Which contradicts the idea in the OP article stating about Hamas’ “demands.”
The closet thing I could find was this:
The Hamas leadership has said that the objectives of the attacks are ending “Israeli violations”, securing the release of Palestinian prisoners, and “returning to the project of establishing a state”.
Which are certainly objectives, but not specific enough to be demands.
Searching for “hamas’ list of demands” online, there are several articles similar to the one above that reference it, but no list of demands that I can see. The closest things I can find are the 1988 and 2017 Hamas charters, which aren’t particularly specific other than the original one calls for the eradication of Israel and the Jews, and the revised one just calls for the eradication of Israel… which isn’t exactly a demand as much as an aspiration, and is kind of a moot point because it doesn’t seem like something that would be accepted by Israel.
So I’m still looking for an actual list of demands…
Which are certainly objectives, but not specific enough to be demands.
Not really? “Release Palestinian prisoners” and “stop Israeli violations” at least are definitely demands, and from what I found they also want Israel to stop flying drones over Gaza. That said, yeah, I guess not much has been made public.
Well for an actual “list of demands” I would expect things like “release these people:” followed by a list of names, and “stop doing these violations:” followed by a list of the violations they are accusing Israel of. “Release everybody” and “stop doing bad things” are technically demands, but they’re not the kind of things you’d expect in an actual list of specific demands. Those certainly work as summaries of the demands, but I was hoping that some news agency would have an actual list of the specific things Hamas is demanding in order to release the hostages rather than just “do everything we want.” I’ve seen them mention the drones in another article, which I suspect must be one of the things on the actual list.
“Release everyone” is one of their actual demands. Usually Hamas milks hostages for as many Palestinian prisoners as they’re worth, and this time they have a lot of hostages so it should be in line with historical “exchange rates”, so to speak, given that many of the hostages are soldiers, which have more value as hostages. Good point on the violations thing, though, it’s frankly perplexing that they nobody is publishing an actual list.
If something as vague as “release everyone” or “release all Palestinians in Israeli jails” or whatever is one of their actual demands, it’s unfortunate, because it makes it sound more like they’re not serious and are just making impossible demands that they know will not/can not be met as an excuse to continue fighting but to give off the appearance of working for peace. Just as if “the eradication of the Israeli state” were one of their demands. But I can’t really accuse them of that yet since I haven’t seen an actual list of demands and we’re both just speculating at this stage.
There are 2M Palestinians living within the borders that Israel claims as it’s own. There are 8M Israelis (that figure includes Palestinian Israelis). Palestinians would need to hold roughly 1/5 of all gov’t positions in order for them to be anything other than a token minority. But they don’t. In fact, it’s not even close. The US, despite it’s 200+ year racist and patriarchal history, has better representation of non-white and non-male people in Congress–as a proportion of the population–than Israel does.
In the USA, there are 3 African-American senators out of 100. There have been only 3 African American governors in history.
There are 9 ethnic minority members of French parliament out of 577, despite making up about 15% of the population.
Ethnic minorities represent 10% of the UK Parliament, despite being 16% of the population.
In Israel, there are 10 seats in the Knesset representing Arab/Palestinian parties out of 120.
Underrepresentation of minorities is a widespread global problem that is not limited to Israel. Pretending that the the rest of the world is some kind of post-racial utopia, while only Israel experiences racial inequality is cynical at best.
Look at state legislators, mayors, etc. Yeah, the US is gerrymandered to shit, and SCOTUS is gutting the civil rights and voting rights acts. But at least at a state level, non-white people have better representation. In my state, Republicans are currently fighting a federal court order to redraw voting districts because they under-represented black populations, but that city has a black mayor, and a majority black city council. Yeah, the US has a problem with racism. But the US doesn’t send in the military to run Atlanta because they don’t want black and Latino people to have a say in the government.
Ty for clarifying, West Bank settlements are absolutely abhorrent, but I’ve seen too many people use the phrase claimed territory to refer to all of Israel. I appreciate the response and clarification
IMO, the 1947 UN borders are fairly reasonable, and Jerusalem should probably be administered by rotating 3rd parties (since there’s no way that Israel and Palestine can realistically jointly govern Jerusalem due to how religiously charged it is).
I mean Israel doesn’t follow its ceasefires. What do they expect will happen? Despite two agreements stipulating that the blockade would be lifted and air strikes would stop neither happened.
Internet libs love to tell people how they should fight for their rights. I wonder if anyone has considered holding a bake sale in Gaza? Maybe then both sides can sit down and talk? Maybe Israel just doesn’t know committing genocide is bad? Does Hamas know Israel wants to commit genocide? Does Israel know Palestinians feel pain and suffering?
Many of those prisoners are there after participating in terrorist activities, many of them murdering lots of innocent civilians. The only reason they’re still there is because Israel does not have the death penalty.
Release the hostages and then what? Lose all their leverage? I can bet you right now if they release the hostages outside of an actual ceasefire agreements none of their demands will be met.
Are you serious? After so many news talking about drugged up kids which were released in hostage exchange and naked woman being dragged through the city and spat on you actually question whether hostages are abused?
Oh in that case we’re talking about different things. There are hostages who were abused the moment they were taken. The people who abused those need to be punished, no questions asked. There are then hostages that weren’t. Those weren’t abused after being taken into the tunnels, or at least weren’t sexually assaulted. The former is a fact, the latter is a claim even the IDF walked back on.
I think Israel will take over Gaza like it used to before 2005 (they’ve actually stated this), and Palestinians prisoners will continue rotting in the Israeli military prison system. I also think Palestinian resistance will be mercilessly crushed. Why do you ask?
They tried to go for a rebel strike that might make Israel pause and think about their constant ongoing oppression and slaughter, but Papa Biden was there to make sure that didn’t work.
It wasn’t bad enough that white nation’s went in, stole their land, and displaced them.
America had been depending on Israel to buy and use their guns and ammunition the whole time through to prop up the military industrial complex and give America a toe-hold across the Pacific.
Plenty of bootlicking Americans around to deny that long and horrific history though.
Just for anyone who might happen to care about facts, Israel is not a “white nation”, and most of its citizens actually originate from the Middle East from Jewish communities in Arab countries that were expelled in the 50s and 60s. Ashkenazi Jews from Europe are a significant group, but they’re not a majority. Most Arab countries had Jewish communities for well over 2000 years before being forcibly expelled due to Arab anger after the formation of Israel.
The synagogue of Baghdad, for instance, was built 2500 years ago. A synagogue on the outskirts of Damascus was build 2700 years ago. The synagogue of Aleppo dates nearly 3000 years ago, where it housed a set of Hebrew Bible scrolls from around the year 1000 until they were removed following anti-Jewish riots in 1947. Libya has a synagogue from c. 1060. Cairo has 12 synagogues, but less than 10 Egyptian Jews. In Yemen, evidence of Jewish community dates back 2500 years. In 1949 and 1950, 50,000 Yemeni Jews were evacuated to Israel in the face of growing persecution and backlash to the creation of Israel. By 2009, there were about 350 Jews left in Yemen, and following the Civil War in Yemen and strong persecution from the Houthis, there are less than 10 Jews remaining in Yemen, essentially ending over 2500 years of Jewish history in Yemen.
To describe Israel as nothing but a bunch of white Europeans is simply inaccurate and erases the millennia-long history of Jewish communities throughout the entire Middle East.
Just say it. Just call them savages you want exterminated.
You don’t care about death or suffering, you care about how “impure and backwards they are”. To be cleaned for “progress”
You’re building up to it, just speak plainly. You want to improve the land of Palestine by clearing out the savages. It’s the genocidal colonial logic you subscribe to. Let people know who you are.
Is there a list of Hamas’ demands published somewhere? Cause I don’t see it in the article…
I’m genuinely curious as to whether it’s an achievable list of demands vs ludicrous posturing that has no chance of ever being met.
I’m pretty sure the raison d’etre of Hamas is just “death to Israel”
Yes the abolishment of the oppressive genocidal ethno state of israel is indeed their goal.
I’m pretty sure the raison d’être of Nelson Mandela and the ANC was to end the Apartheid in South Africa as well.
Violent resistance groups don’t just magically spawn out of thin air.
They’re a terrorist organisation and use terrorist methods. They don’t even care if Palestinians get killed. Can’t believe you’re equating them with Nelson Mandela 😂
The Apartheid in South Africa didn’t end with Mandela going on a hunger strike my friend. That’s the funny story the US tells you afterwards
They regained their rights using the same methods that were used to take their rights away.
Violence.
Mandela was on the American “terror” watch list until 2008
Yep. Him and Winnie were infamous for putting tyres around the necks of their victims, filling the tyres with petrol, then lighting em up. Amnesty international wouldn’t go near him for a very long time. This came up in my Facebook memories a couple of days ago, the dude was a monster. Personally, I don’t think the ends justified the means, but I know they did for many, and I know for even more they don’t know the whole story…
It seems his wife Winnie was openly advocating for it while Mandela was in prison but I can’t find him associating with it.
Source.
Palestine is more of an ethnostate than israel lol.
Number one is the complete removal of Israel always. So highly doubtful.
Do you have the actual list that shows this is part of their current “list of demands”?
I realize that was part of the Hamas charter, but that’s a different beast than what sounds like their current list of demands. This would be an example of a ludicrous demand that is just for show rather than a serious negotiation.
They want a ceasefire, the blockade to be loosened and the release of all Palestinian prisoners in Israel. All things that shouldn’t need even need negotiation to happen in a non-Apartheid state.
Is there an actual published list of demands somewhere that is cite-able?
So it doesn’t say much but I found this,
https://www.aljazeera.com/features/2023/10/11/analysis-why-did-hamas-attack-now-and-what-is-next
Israeli violations can be understood to main airstrikes and other military action against Gaza, though it’s unclear if it includes the blockade.
Unfortunately you’re right, it doesn’t say a whole lot.
and later
Which contradicts the idea in the OP article stating about Hamas’ “demands.”
The closet thing I could find was this:
Which are certainly objectives, but not specific enough to be demands.
Searching for “hamas’ list of demands” online, there are several articles similar to the one above that reference it, but no list of demands that I can see. The closest things I can find are the 1988 and 2017 Hamas charters, which aren’t particularly specific other than the original one calls for the eradication of Israel and the Jews, and the revised one just calls for the eradication of Israel… which isn’t exactly a demand as much as an aspiration, and is kind of a moot point because it doesn’t seem like something that would be accepted by Israel.
So I’m still looking for an actual list of demands…
Thank you for properly seeking sources for information instead of just blindly believing what someone on a forum tells you.
Ironically I’m still getting shit upon by one or two freakish trolls for simply asking questions and engaging in dialog.
It’s kind of annoying that the block feature doesn’t work right, since I still get notifications whenever people I’ve blocked comment.
Not really? “Release Palestinian prisoners” and “stop Israeli violations” at least are definitely demands, and from what I found they also want Israel to stop flying drones over Gaza. That said, yeah, I guess not much has been made public.
Well for an actual “list of demands” I would expect things like “release these people:” followed by a list of names, and “stop doing these violations:” followed by a list of the violations they are accusing Israel of. “Release everybody” and “stop doing bad things” are technically demands, but they’re not the kind of things you’d expect in an actual list of specific demands. Those certainly work as summaries of the demands, but I was hoping that some news agency would have an actual list of the specific things Hamas is demanding in order to release the hostages rather than just “do everything we want.” I’ve seen them mention the drones in another article, which I suspect must be one of the things on the actual list.
“Release everyone” is one of their actual demands. Usually Hamas milks hostages for as many Palestinian prisoners as they’re worth, and this time they have a lot of hostages so it should be in line with historical “exchange rates”, so to speak, given that many of the hostages are soldiers, which have more value as hostages. Good point on the violations thing, though, it’s frankly perplexing that they nobody is publishing an actual list.
If something as vague as “release everyone” or “release all Palestinians in Israeli jails” or whatever is one of their actual demands, it’s unfortunate, because it makes it sound more like they’re not serious and are just making impossible demands that they know will not/can not be met as an excuse to continue fighting but to give off the appearance of working for peace. Just as if “the eradication of the Israeli state” were one of their demands. But I can’t really accuse them of that yet since I haven’t seen an actual list of demands and we’re both just speculating at this stage.
Which Hamas broke on Oct 7, despite loosening restrictions on Gaza, then again on Nov 30.
Which Egypt and Israel instated with international support because Hamas even turns humanitarian aid into weapons.
Palestinian Israelis serve in every level of government and civic life.
There are 2M Palestinians living within the borders that Israel claims as it’s own. There are 8M Israelis (that figure includes Palestinian Israelis). Palestinians would need to hold roughly 1/5 of all gov’t positions in order for them to be anything other than a token minority. But they don’t. In fact, it’s not even close. The US, despite it’s 200+ year racist and patriarchal history, has better representation of non-white and non-male people in Congress–as a proportion of the population–than Israel does.
In the USA, there are 3 African-American senators out of 100. There have been only 3 African American governors in history.
There are 9 ethnic minority members of French parliament out of 577, despite making up about 15% of the population.
Ethnic minorities represent 10% of the UK Parliament, despite being 16% of the population.
In Israel, there are 10 seats in the Knesset representing Arab/Palestinian parties out of 120.
Underrepresentation of minorities is a widespread global problem that is not limited to Israel. Pretending that the the rest of the world is some kind of post-racial utopia, while only Israel experiences racial inequality is cynical at best.
Look at state legislators, mayors, etc. Yeah, the US is gerrymandered to shit, and SCOTUS is gutting the civil rights and voting rights acts. But at least at a state level, non-white people have better representation. In my state, Republicans are currently fighting a federal court order to redraw voting districts because they under-represented black populations, but that city has a black mayor, and a majority black city council. Yeah, the US has a problem with racism. But the US doesn’t send in the military to run Atlanta because they don’t want black and Latino people to have a say in the government.
What territories are you describing when you say “within the borders that Israel claims as it’s own.”
The West Bank, which is occupied territory. E.g., it’s not part of Israel under international law, but Israel claims it as its own.
Ty for clarifying, West Bank settlements are absolutely abhorrent, but I’ve seen too many people use the phrase claimed territory to refer to all of Israel. I appreciate the response and clarification
IMO, the 1947 UN borders are fairly reasonable, and Jerusalem should probably be administered by rotating 3rd parties (since there’s no way that Israel and Palestine can realistically jointly govern Jerusalem due to how religiously charged it is).
Israel broke the ceasefire by invading Al Aqsa before Oct 7 it was the direct reason for the attack.
Also israel refused to extend the ceasefire agreement and were probably the first party that threw bombs on 30 nov.
Lay off the IDF propaganda for a bit.
So, a third ceasefire now, with them starting new attacks within 30 minutes or less? Or are we past third yet?
It’s like the 17th ceasefire with Hamas. They just use them to rebuild their rocket supplies, then break them when they’re ready.
I mean Israel doesn’t follow its ceasefires. What do they expect will happen? Despite two agreements stipulating that the blockade would be lifted and air strikes would stop neither happened.
Internet libs love to tell people how they should fight for their rights. I wonder if anyone has considered holding a bake sale in Gaza? Maybe then both sides can sit down and talk? Maybe Israel just doesn’t know committing genocide is bad? Does Hamas know Israel wants to commit genocide? Does Israel know Palestinians feel pain and suffering?
It’s impossible to know without DiALoGuE.
Jubilee did a Middle Ground on Israel/Palestine. It went how you’d expect.
I think you’re confusing Hamas firing rockets for Israeli ones. Or maybe you’re intentionally miss stating those.
Many of those prisoners are there after participating in terrorist activities, many of them murdering lots of innocent civilians. The only reason they’re still there is because Israel does not have the death penalty.
And about 1100 are there without charge.
They need to release hostages for a ceasefire. You know, those they just said they will kill. Try to keep up.
Release the hostages and then what? Lose all their leverage? I can bet you right now if they release the hostages outside of an actual ceasefire agreements none of their demands will be met.
No keep raping and drugging them. That will get them closer to the goal.
That’s… Not happening to my knowledge. Where did you get that from?
Are you serious? After so many news talking about drugged up kids which were released in hostage exchange and naked woman being dragged through the city and spat on you actually question whether hostages are abused?
Oh in that case we’re talking about different things. There are hostages who were abused the moment they were taken. The people who abused those need to be punished, no questions asked. There are then hostages that weren’t. Those weren’t abused after being taken into the tunnels, or at least weren’t sexually assaulted. The former is a fact, the latter is a claim even the IDF walked back on.
After they release all the hostages they’re going to nurder? You mean what happens then? IDK, what do you thibk?
I think Israel will take over Gaza like it used to before 2005 (they’ve actually stated this), and Palestinians prisoners will continue rotting in the Israeli military prison system. I also think Palestinian resistance will be mercilessly crushed. Why do you ask?
Check out the geopolitical whiz kid!
They’re doing far better than you are.
Hamas? They are getting their ass ki kicked.
Well, in your boot licking eyes, it can only be the latter even if the only demand is “Everyone stops killing people.”
Lol what the fuck is your problem?
I ask a question, making me a boot licker. So I guess people who never ask questions, like you, are what… ?
Fucking trolls is what.
You and the boot licking pro genocide bile you constantly spew.
Yes, but Hamas did start the war so it’s not that simple
Even if you ignore the Nakba, the war started in 1967 with the Israeli occupation of territory now claimed by the State of Palestine.
No. It started earlier. Like 5000BC
Original sin argument. Bold.
Its all the same with minor deviations.
No…
No they didn’t.
They tried to go for a rebel strike that might make Israel pause and think about their constant ongoing oppression and slaughter, but Papa Biden was there to make sure that didn’t work.
It wasn’t bad enough that white nation’s went in, stole their land, and displaced them.
America had been depending on Israel to buy and use their guns and ammunition the whole time through to prop up the military industrial complex and give America a toe-hold across the Pacific.
Plenty of bootlicking Americans around to deny that long and horrific history though.
Just for anyone who might happen to care about facts, Israel is not a “white nation”, and most of its citizens actually originate from the Middle East from Jewish communities in Arab countries that were expelled in the 50s and 60s. Ashkenazi Jews from Europe are a significant group, but they’re not a majority. Most Arab countries had Jewish communities for well over 2000 years before being forcibly expelled due to Arab anger after the formation of Israel.
The synagogue of Baghdad, for instance, was built 2500 years ago. A synagogue on the outskirts of Damascus was build 2700 years ago. The synagogue of Aleppo dates nearly 3000 years ago, where it housed a set of Hebrew Bible scrolls from around the year 1000 until they were removed following anti-Jewish riots in 1947. Libya has a synagogue from c. 1060. Cairo has 12 synagogues, but less than 10 Egyptian Jews. In Yemen, evidence of Jewish community dates back 2500 years. In 1949 and 1950, 50,000 Yemeni Jews were evacuated to Israel in the face of growing persecution and backlash to the creation of Israel. By 2009, there were about 350 Jews left in Yemen, and following the Civil War in Yemen and strong persecution from the Houthis, there are less than 10 Jews remaining in Yemen, essentially ending over 2500 years of Jewish history in Yemen.
To describe Israel as nothing but a bunch of white Europeans is simply inaccurate and erases the millennia-long history of Jewish communities throughout the entire Middle East.
Sir, no one told me being humane would require reading. I’d like to speak to the manager. /s
This is the reason you give for murder and rape of innocent people? This is your justification? You are morally repugnant
As is the IDF and Netanyahu for continuing to murder Palestinians, journalists and innocent children by the thousands.
And kettling Palestinians in southern Gaza so it’s easier to bomb/kill them.
There is no justification for the atrocities committed on Oct 7th. The more I read your tripe the sicker I feel for mankind.
I CAN NOT wait for you to give the justification for what Israel has done to Palestine every day for over 50 years.
Hint: Its murder and rape.
Show me where Isreal killed women as they raped them then mutilated their bodies you sick SOB.
Then stop reading. That should help your sickness.
Knowing there are people like you in the world just sickens me more.
Israel does that too!
Has done it consistently for 50 years?
Do I endorse Hamas fighting fire with fire? No.
Can I blame Hamas for fighting fire with fire? No.
Jesus I hate you fucking fruit fly memoried bandwagoning genocidal bastards.
Sure chief. Show me where Israelis behead people. Show me where they burn them alive. Get out of here with that false equivalency
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Just say it. Just call them savages you want exterminated.
You don’t care about death or suffering, you care about how “impure and backwards they are”. To be cleaned for “progress”
You’re building up to it, just speak plainly. You want to improve the land of Palestine by clearing out the savages. It’s the genocidal colonial logic you subscribe to. Let people know who you are.
First you say what you really feel. The Jews deserved it, right? It’s on the tip of your tongue