Your book, like Elizabeth Hinton’s “America on Fire,” delves into a decades-long cycle that’s played out in many US cities: Police violence, followed by uprisings, followed by promises for reform and blue ribbon commissions that ultimately produce only “modest change and a photo op.” Did you come out of your reporting with a solid idea of what a better process would look like?
Ellis: I don’t know how you can look at Minneapolis today and say they are better for choosing reform over revolution. The mayor reorganized the public safety department, then there was turnover in the leadership there. The chief who was supposed to lead the transformation of the police force recently resigned in disgrace. Like most police departments in the country, the budget continues to balloon thanks to overtime costs. And at the moment the city is failing to even meet the basics of its court-mandated reforms. By definition this is insanity, right?
I think like anything in local government, having a process for the community to guide designs and offer feedback is important. But I think the starting point has to be a total tear down, not a rebuild. That sounds simplistic, but look at where making changes on the edges has gotten us? Revised training standards and use of force policies have amounted to departments that are effectively the same. The aim needs to be so much higher.
How would revolution work?
If people had an essentially monolithic and precise idea of the state after the revolution, it would work. Otherwise civil war and instability ensues. If Chaos is, for the people, still a worse Option than the tyranny at Hand, there wont be a Revolution.
MLs are way ahead on this.
Are they? Their proposals for the state as among the least popular to ever exist. Maybe just below fascism.
Internal unity is not sufficient. You need mass support, which MLs don’t, and probably will never have. This is why (among other reasons) none of their political projects have ever achieved their ultimate goals.
Well North Korea, China, and the USSR chose revolution and they’re a plague on this earth.
If authoritarian Marxist-Leninists are helming a revolution, history has shown it results in disaster every time, as they never dismantle centralized power or hierarchies.
History also shows us that Anarchist revolutions, such as when Spanish Anarchists chose revolution in 1936, it can result in one of the most promising egalitarian and non-authoritarian societies in the last century.
Name one revolution that actually ended happily and positively?
The one where we ended up with slaves? Remember the English ended slavery in 1772, interesting timing
The one where they went on a killing spree? Then RETURNED to monarchy?
How about the one that resulted in a tons of death from drastic economic change?
How about the ones that resulted in theocracy, financial and economic ruin? Ecological disaster?
Revolutions make space for reform sure but we can do better. Education and safety is always going to lend itself to change better than anything.
The issue is that virtually every previous revolution did not have the goal of completely eliminating power hierarchies, they instead generally just shift who is in control of those hierarchies.
There have only been two large scale Anarchist revolutions with those goals in mind (the Ukrainian revolution during the Russian Civil War, and the Anarchist revolution during the Spanish Civil War), and both appeared to be having excellent results until an outside force violently stopped them.
The distinction between those two different types of revolution is an important one.
Because when you think about it, you can’t.
If you have a revolution, you’re forming a hierarchy to replace another. The concept of anarchism even in its smallest form is unrealistic.
Those revolutions were winning the fight but once the dust settled it would not have continued, anarchy is a lot like a shadow it can really only exist if there is an -archy to be the an- of. You know?
During both conflicts the anarchists had to from a hierarchy to function to some degree and had they won, they would’ve had to form a bigger one to run a nation
The Anarchists lost to the pro-Nazis government, idk why everyone tries to use that as an example. Really depressing to think about.
There are really only two large scale examples of revolution ending in a democracy: France and USA.
In the case of the USA it led to a lot of genocide of natives but you could argue the crown would have eventually done the same.
The way I see it is if reform is an option: take it. If reform is not an option then, and only then, will violent revolution have a chance at resulting in a better or equal system.
“Two guys beat up one guy, how could the one guy’s ideas make any sense at all?”
The Anarchists lost to the pro-Nazis government, idk why everyone tries to use that as an example. Really depressing to think about.
There’s a really fantastic 6-part documentary that goes over the conflict in great detail, but to give the short version:
It failed for a multitude of reasons, but when I did my own deep dive on this, Anarchism itself wasn’t one of those reasons. I found that the specific time it took place, as well as the previous industrial capacity of Spain itself, were likely two of the biggest contributors.
The civil war occurred during a period when there were powerful states on the world stage, Nazi Germany and Fascist Italy, who were ready and willing to supply needed logistics and manpower to other right-wing states. It also happened when both of those states were not yet embroiled in their own world war, giving them the opportunity to send more resources and aid than they would’ve have been able to justify a handful of years later.
On the other hand, the Anarchists (and Liberals) of Spain had no allies on the world stage willing to help them besides some meager aid from Mexico (who lacked the ability to send airplanes or tanks), and a few secret shipments of aid from France. The USSR ended up sending the most weaponry, but only to the Marxist-Leninist faction so they could control the country if they won, and those same marxist leninists targeted the Anarchists towards the end of the war in an effort to shore up their power.
Spain simply hadn’t developed enough military industrial capacity before the war to avoid being so reliant on foreign logistics. As General Pershing supposedly once said, “Infantry win battles, logistics win wars.” That’s ultimately why the allies were able to defeat the Axis in WWII as well, since the combined industrial and logistical capacity of the allies (especially with the introduction of the US’s industrial capacity), simply become overwhelming.
Any system or ideology in the same circumstances as the Anarchists in Spain is not going to have good odds of succeeding.
The point of people such as myself using it as an example is that it proved out that society organized around Anarchist concepts does work, and it doesn’t result in authoritarianism like revolutions from other ideologies tend to.
And if there is a civil war in the USA between anarchists and fascists, I expect that the fascists will be better funded.
A straight up confrontation like Spain was able to do would indeed be impossible without part of the military fracturing and joining the resistance.
A more feasible scenario would probably look like the Irish Troubles.
Even then, the agreement has led to a dysfunctional devolved government and conditions of the agreement which are in jeopardy due to Brexit.
To be clear, I don’t think a troubles like civil war would be a good outcome, but if that’s the only tool left in the shed, I could see some people going that route in the hopes that it avoids the US turning into an oligarchic mafia state like Russia.
Ideally we can avoid that outcome by mass civil disobedience, unions banding together in a general strike, and grassroots communities building up an alternative system via prefiguration.
deleted by creator
In response to this you go can read the response I made to it before they deleted their own comment.
