• gowan@reddthat.com
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      1 year ago

      They exist in non-capitalist systems as well so long as the economy has growth metrics being tracked. They can be rarer but as economic data from some countries is less reliable due to fraud, incompetence or just sheer difficulty in obtaining said data (eg try getting accurate numbers in a extremely poor country with little infrastructure) so it can be hard to tell.

      They exist outside of capitalism. Im not sure why you would think other systems have perpetual upwards growth.

          • gowan@reddthat.com
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            1 year ago

            The UK in 1706. It predates capitalism and the economy tanked by ~15% as the result if war with France.

            Yes they moved the goalposts and they still managed to be wrong.

            • 3laws@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Yes they moved the goalposts and they still managed to be wrong

              Well, fancy that.

              Anywho… for a second there I thought your instance was @redhat.com

            • SheeEttin@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              How does something predate capitalism? I feel like capitalism happened as soon as one ape had something another didn’t.

              • gowan@reddthat.com
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                1 year ago

                Capitalism, like many philosophies, is a response to a previous system eg Marx was responding to Smith’s works, Mussolini was responding to Marxists etc. Capitalism’s notion that the ideal involvement of the state in private enterprise should be limited was not a commonly held view until the later 1700s.

                Mercantilism was the popular system of the time and it featured a lot of direct involvement from the crown.

            • 3laws@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              Since late stage capitalism is imperialism 3.0, I wonder if it still counts. 🤔

              • gowan@reddthat.com
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                1 year ago

                That’s just a more complicated way of you stating you do not understand what imperialism is as that is absolutely not just a capitalist thing eg The USSR.

            • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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              1 year ago

              I meant currently, today, not historically.

              predates capitalism

              Talk about moving goalposts. Mixed economies include capitalist markets.

        • TanakaAsuka@sh.itjust.works
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          1 year ago

          If we exclude mixed economies and state capitalist countries we are left with basically looking at historic record so let’s do that.

          There were recessions in 15the century England, not a capitalist economy at all! There was also a recession in Rome in 33 AD as well if you want to look back further. This is just from 5 minutes of googling.

          It is not possible to have an economy that never contracts, just to have one where it happens nowhere near as frequently as our current systems and with far better outcomes for most people.

        • gowan@reddthat.com
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          1 year ago

          Moving the goalposts? Still possible the UK in 1706 was in a massive recession as a result if the war with France. Neither country would be capitalist at the time and were mercantilist.

          You can just admit that you have no idea what a recession is and made an inaccurate comment because of that ignorance.

          • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            I would if it were true. Recessions occur with economic markets. All economies in the world today use some form of capitalism. Either state run or mixed. Therefore, I still stand by my statement. If you can find a current example of a recession occurring in a non capitalist country, I will humbly apologize. I don’t have to be correct. But I’m not going to bow while you denigrate a correct statement.

            Edit: After discussing this with my son, he said I’m wrong. So I’m sorry and apologize. I didn’t specify the present in my comment. That’s what I meant. But I understand that historically there have been other economies with recessions.

            Edit 2: It seems my apology was premature. After further reading, I found the term was coined in 1929. Which places it firmly under, you guessed it- capitalism.

            The sense of “temporary decline in economic activity” was a fall-of-1929 coinage, probably a noun of action from recess.

            Before then, economic declines were called financial disaster or slumps.

              • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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                1 year ago

                Funny how recessions only exist under capitalism.

                Did I say “disaster,” “slumps” or “extended negative growth?”

                  • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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                    1 year ago

                    You’re late. Another user did what you couldn’t. I took the L, but not from you.

                    I’m gonna break it down for future reference… My statement:

                    Funny how recessions only exist under capitalism.

                    The other user moved the goalposts by bringing in non-capitalist countries. I excluded mixed economies and state run capitalism because that is still capitalism. They had to reach back in history to find examples. Those examples were:

                    1. Not capitalist.
                    2. We’re not recessions. Because the term did not exist yet.

                    So my statement was still true.

                    Another user gave good examples when recessions did exist. Those examples were socialist (albeit some could be considered mixed economies).

                    This makes my statement fallacious, and therefore, an L. This is not about my feelings, or winning and losing. It’s about logic and truth.

                    Also, from a Linguistics professor:

                    “‘It’s just semantics’ is a common retort people use when arguing their point. What they mean is that their argument or opinion is more valid than the other person’s. It’s a way to be dismissive of language itself as carrier for ideas. It implies that ideas and arguments can be separated from the words and phrases used to encode those ideas. The irony, of course, is that the words and phrases we use are the ideas. There is no way to communicate a complex argument or message without language. Language and thought are completely interconnected. In fact, words shape concepts and can lead to drastically different understandings of the same thing. For example, inheritance taxes can be called ‘death taxes’ or ‘estate taxes.’ These two political phrases frame the same tax law in drastically different ways. Semantics really matters.”

      • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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        1 year ago

        Still capitalist.

        Gross domestic product is expected to grow 8.3% this year, from 1.9% in 2021, according to a Bloomberg survey of five economists. The country is getting a lift from a rise in oil production and seeing tax revenue and banking credit expand, which suggests domestic demand is rising.

        Time to get a new talking point.

          • TokenBoomer@lemmy.world
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            1 year ago

            Yeah, I’ve read it was really horrific. It’s still bad there, but it seems to be getting better.