I'm really sorry to ask but at this moment my gf and me are personally still 274 euros short for rent this month 😟 :sad_cat:
It been a rough month.. Luckily all server bills are paid for so thats the biggest part ❤️
If you can miss something, any bit would help out a lot
https://paypal.me/stuxOS
https://patreon.com/mstdn
https://ko-fi.com/mstdn
https://bunq.me/stuxhost
https://stux.me/donate
https://liberapay.com/mstdn
Boost would also be appricated a lot :blobsnuggle: 💕
Please, tell me how “paying for hardware costs is enough”…
@rglullis@communick.news my honest recommendation is to switch to the plain text only mode and disable file / media upload if it’s possible. Hosting plain text data is cheap. Let them share links only to their cdns, servers or ipfs for media
I understand it pretty well. What I don’t understand is why some people only want to participate here if it means they can get to free ride on “volunteers”.
In a sibling comment, you say “if providing the service is too much, the solution is to stop doing it”. Fine, I fully agree with it. But do you realize that this implies that sooner or later we are going to run out of people with the capacity (or willingness) to do this work?
We are not talking about any small-time instance. It’s the third largest instance by active user count. Above it, only mastodon.social and mstdn.jp. If the third largest instance has an admin that might have to stop providing the service in order to find another job so that they can make fucking rent, isn’t that a sign that this is not sustainable?
Using the site, interacting with it and participating is providing service. Without those people there would be no content. Showing up is providing service.
I can go and say “my work as an admin is worth $XX,XXX/month, so this is how much I’d like to get paid to do it”. Now, some people will agree with it and pay for it. Some will not, and will look for some cheaper alternative.
If more admins went to on to adopt a similar approach and stipulated first how much their work is worth before even setting up an instance and if users went on to refuse the offer, what would they do?
Putting themselves through the trouble to set up an instance for themselves?
Pay a professional to do it for them?
Go to Reddit?
Can you go around and say “my work as an user of Lemmy (or Reddit, or LinkedIn) is worth $YY per post, or $ZZ,ZZZ per month, and this is how I’d like to get paid to do it?”
Will anyone take you on your proposal?
And if admins refused to accept your offer, what do you think they would do?
Find other sources of “content”?
Pay other professionals to generate content for them?
Go To Reddit?
As a data point: I may have stopped the alien.top mirroring bots, but I am still running them locally to browse Reddit content. To this day, the niche communities I used to sub there have more interesting content than anything here. So don’t think that whatever we are posting here is worth anything.
What I don’t understand is why some people only want to participate here if it means they can get to free ride on “volunteers”.
On reddit, the picture was pretty clear: admins are being paid, so your average commenter is volunteering the content, not to talk about the free (or power trip sponsored) work the mods are doing. And of course with the way reddit treated it’s contributors, there was huge animosity towards certain admins.
I don’t see the participants here riding any more ‘free’ in terms of making this place work. The difference is that the admin is contributing money, instead of getting paid.
I can get behind a campaign for temporarily funding hosting costs, but that probably would not include rent or pay for the admin. It feels the main problem is rooted in our economy somewhere, but this is also something of a ‘put your own oxygen mask on first’ scenarios.
It is frustrating that someone who does such an amazing thing for the common good is struggling to get a fraction of a Zach Braff indiegogo project. You are also doing a good thing by spreading the message, but the pressure on this donation almost alienates me. Without knowing much about server instances, I imagine there are less fortunate alternatives, like moving the hosts to someone close by, outsourcing certain roles to trusted folk while the admin finds the time and money to fund their hobby again.
I hope I’m not coming over as too cold, it just feels like you are trying to solve a way bigger problem than we have. We need the instances run by volunteers. Would the admin be happier if their project died, or temporarily be handed over (if this is possible at all)? What’s better for the thousands of users? Is it fair to the admin? Shit no. Can they get the funding to pay for their hobby? Maybe. Is it fair if they are using the instance as leverage?
I think that the crux of the matter is about whether or not we see this as “just a hobby” or if we really see an investment in the Fediverse as the best alternative that we have for an open (I am not going to say “free” to avoid confusion) web that can take power away from Big Tech and back to the people.
We need the instances run by volunteers.
Why? Are you going to tell me that the 98% of non-paying users are struggling so much with their finances that they can not afford to pay a couple of bucks per month to an admin?
If the numbers were reversed and we had 2% of the people saying “sorry, I really can not afford this. Can I have access still?” I would be a lot more understanding. Hell, the number could go up to even 20% and I wouldn’t mind opening a few free accounts…
But 98%? I can bet that the most if not all find a way to pay for Netflix, or Spotify, or their games but $2.50 a month is suddenly too much for ninety-and-eight percent of the people?
Or their games. Or their booze/drugs/cigarettes. Or their whatever they spend their money on without questioning the one providing the goods why they want to charge for it.
Btw, just gave 10$ to my instance today
Good on you! Now, let’s get that to become the norm for everyone else.
Love the enthusiasm! If anything gives me faith in the world, it’s that we have the Gnu crowd. I think it’s hard not to fall in love with it in the gloom of the late-freemium era.
Stop rummaging in other people’s wallet. Money as it is, is a very sensitive topic. Also further down in this thread you bring in addiction, alienating further people.
Reddit is having trouble monetizing, yet you blame druggies from this very community for similar problems we’re facing. What is your point? Where are you going? What do you want?
We have no tools against capitalism besides pushing a friggin ‘buy me a coffee’ button anywhere possible. Maybe Copyleft for those who’d proudly piss in the headwind. If you wanna make the system better, that’s great! It just feels like you are lashing out at the community instead of empathizing. Broadcasting ideals is alright if you only want to vent about it and not actually look for solutions.
Can you imagine me not contributing monetarily but wanting the best for all of us? You are definitely underestimating the number of broke people here, but the things you are campaigning for go straight against the spirit of the movement. Work with what we have to make shit better for all (while somehow hardening against capitalism).
My mention of drugs/booze/cigarettes is completely non-judgemental. I am not saying that is bad if people spend money on that. I am just pointing out that, yes,.some people do spend money on it and they are not expecting to keep partaking in their pleasures for free.
Reddit is having trouble monetizing
They do not. They are making hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue with their advertising.
We have no tools against capitalism.
Trade and commerce that prioritizes small business is already a big weapon against globalism and Corporatist Capitalism.
Focusing on closed-loop, sustainable economies is a tool against Capitalism.
Community-led investing that prioritizes long-term wealth building is a tool against rent-seeking enterprises that stimulate zero-sum games.
You are definitely underestimating the number of broke people here.
If I am, then the discussion should be “how can we have a sustainable system that gives a fair wage to those working on it , while not stressing those who can not afford even 2 bucks per month?” instead of this “you can not charge from everyone because you are not empathizing.”
Once we reframe the discussion, we should be able to propose things like:
“pay it forward” systems, where those who can afford more pay for those who can not. Let them become responsible for who to invite. (I have implemented this at Communick, by the way, and so far I had only two people paying for others.)
Selling ad space for ethical businesses. Back in 2007 there used to be a network of bloggers who did not want to pollute their pages with adSense, so they got together and created a system where companies would pay $5k to $10k to have one slot and all bloggers committed to display this banner during the whole month. Something like that could be done here as well, if “making money” wasn’t such a capital sin.
focus on making this normie-friendly. Stop with the political bickering and organize the topic-specific instances (which I already offered for other admins), use them to attract a larger audience so that we have more “actually I can pay a few bucks per month” crowd to dilute the “I am anti-establishment but I can not afford to fight against it” crowd that seems to dominate so far.
Simple solution. Mimic what paid online news does. Paywall, but like don’t raise the perimeter anytime someone finds a ladder. Like we have here with the linked archive posts. Definitely a good way to keep out the heavy commies.
Selling ad space
Go for it! But you won’t get me to uninstall my adblocker until I am convinced ads are any good to me. Like not the piece of shit manipulations that treat me as a skinner box. Many good examples of incorporating ads into shows, but with dignity and taste and a clear indication that it is an ad.
Also, if the admin deserves compensation for their time, why don’t I get a pretty penny for this? Sure, the admin hosts and supports the frame, but they could twirl their short hairs all night without the buzz.
If providing a completely voluntary service is too much of a personal burden, the solution is to stop doing it. No one is being exploited, all relationships on Lemmy and Mastadon are completely voluntary by design.
Personally I don’t mind the idea of Lemmy embracing a syndicalist financial model or something of that nature but you’re simply spouting a bunch of entitled nonsense.
“Oh c’mon man, it’s your hobby, right You’d do it anyway?”
Also, it wasn’t exactly just leftists, but also my leftist friends who were always asking for “friend prices” when I drove them around when I drove a taxi. Like… you guys are getting special service, and I’m your friend, you get to skip the hour of waiting and fighting other drunks in the taxi queue.
It also would’ve been different if there was the chances of favours in return.
So like people who could actually help with the labour or in something other way put in work, maybe they’d be okay with just covering the hosting costs, but modding a community isn’t exactly the same work as maintaining the soft- and hardware. Alone, I presume.
And also is the “hosting costs” just like the costs of the services for the hosting, or does it incorporate all the cost for electricity to run the equipment as well?
Is it lack of empathy or greed? I never really could figure that out. Feels like a bit of both.
Also, it wasn’t exactly just leftists, but also my leftist friends who were always asking for “friend prices” when I drove them around when I drove a taxi. Like… you guys are getting special service, and I’m your friend, you get to skip the hour of waiting and fighting other drunks in the taxi queue.
Seems like bad friends, whatever the political preferences are
Read again, he is not asking to pay the server bills. It’s 1400€ (so, less than $0,10/active user/month) and he got it fully covered.
You can cut that 5x. You can cut that 10x. You can cut that 100x. It doesn’t matter. You can bet that if he brought down the prices to zero there would still be people saying “why are you asking for money then, it doesn’t cost you anything to run it!” and at the end of the month, he will still be short to make rent.
@rglullis@communick.news my honest recommendation is to switch to the plain text only mode and disable file / media upload if it’s possible. Hosting plain text data is cheap. Let them share links only to their cdns, servers or ipfs for media
Again: hosting costs is the least of the concerns. The problem is that users are not willing to pay for the labor of admins.
I don’t think you understand what a volunteer service is
I understand it pretty well. What I don’t understand is why some people only want to participate here if it means they can get to free ride on “volunteers”.
In a sibling comment, you say “if providing the service is too much, the solution is to stop doing it”. Fine, I fully agree with it. But do you realize that this implies that sooner or later we are going to run out of people with the capacity (or willingness) to do this work?
We are not talking about any small-time instance. It’s the third largest instance by active user count. Above it, only mastodon.social and mstdn.jp. If the third largest instance has an admin that might have to stop providing the service in order to find another job so that they can make fucking rent, isn’t that a sign that this is not sustainable?
Using the site, interacting with it and participating is providing service. Without those people there would be no content. Showing up is providing service.
Is it really?
Do you think it’s quantifiable?
I can go and say “my work as an admin is worth $XX,XXX/month, so this is how much I’d like to get paid to do it”. Now, some people will agree with it and pay for it. Some will not, and will look for some cheaper alternative.
If more admins went to on to adopt a similar approach and stipulated first how much their work is worth before even setting up an instance and if users went on to refuse the offer, what would they do?
Can you go around and say “my work as an user of Lemmy (or Reddit, or LinkedIn) is worth $YY per post, or $ZZ,ZZZ per month, and this is how I’d like to get paid to do it?”
Will anyone take you on your proposal?
And if admins refused to accept your offer, what do you think they would do?
As a data point: I may have stopped the alien.top mirroring bots, but I am still running them locally to browse Reddit content. To this day, the niche communities I used to sub there have more interesting content than anything here. So don’t think that whatever we are posting here is worth anything.
On reddit, the picture was pretty clear: admins are being paid, so your average commenter is volunteering the content, not to talk about the free (or power trip sponsored) work the mods are doing. And of course with the way reddit treated it’s contributors, there was huge animosity towards certain admins. I don’t see the participants here riding any more ‘free’ in terms of making this place work. The difference is that the admin is contributing money, instead of getting paid.
I can get behind a campaign for temporarily funding hosting costs, but that probably would not include rent or pay for the admin. It feels the main problem is rooted in our economy somewhere, but this is also something of a ‘put your own oxygen mask on first’ scenarios.
It is frustrating that someone who does such an amazing thing for the common good is struggling to get a fraction of a Zach Braff indiegogo project. You are also doing a good thing by spreading the message, but the pressure on this donation almost alienates me. Without knowing much about server instances, I imagine there are less fortunate alternatives, like moving the hosts to someone close by, outsourcing certain roles to trusted folk while the admin finds the time and money to fund their hobby again.
I hope I’m not coming over as too cold, it just feels like you are trying to solve a way bigger problem than we have. We need the instances run by volunteers. Would the admin be happier if their project died, or temporarily be handed over (if this is possible at all)? What’s better for the thousands of users? Is it fair to the admin? Shit no. Can they get the funding to pay for their hobby? Maybe. Is it fair if they are using the instance as leverage?
I think that the crux of the matter is about whether or not we see this as “just a hobby” or if we really see an investment in the Fediverse as the best alternative that we have for an open (I am not going to say “free” to avoid confusion) web that can take power away from Big Tech and back to the people.
Why? Are you going to tell me that the 98% of non-paying users are struggling so much with their finances that they can not afford to pay a couple of bucks per month to an admin?
If the numbers were reversed and we had 2% of the people saying “sorry, I really can not afford this. Can I have access still?” I would be a lot more understanding. Hell, the number could go up to even 20% and I wouldn’t mind opening a few free accounts…
But 98%? I can bet that the most if not all find a way to pay for Netflix, or Spotify, or their games but $2.50 a month is suddenly too much for ninety-and-eight percent of the people?
Really not sure about that on Lemmy…
Btw, just gave 10$ to my instance today
Or their games. Or their booze/drugs/cigarettes. Or their whatever they spend their money on without questioning the one providing the goods why they want to charge for it.
Good on you! Now, let’s get that to become the norm for everyone else.
You see people here running 5 years old phones with custom ROMs, 10 years laptops on minimalist distros
Pirating every show or movie they watch. I really don’t think the average Lemmy user is a frivolous spender
Love the enthusiasm! If anything gives me faith in the world, it’s that we have the Gnu crowd. I think it’s hard not to fall in love with it in the gloom of the late-freemium era.
Stop rummaging in other people’s wallet. Money as it is, is a very sensitive topic. Also further down in this thread you bring in addiction, alienating further people.
Reddit is having trouble monetizing, yet you blame druggies from this very community for similar problems we’re facing. What is your point? Where are you going? What do you want?
We have no tools against capitalism besides pushing a friggin ‘buy me a coffee’ button anywhere possible. Maybe Copyleft for those who’d proudly piss in the headwind. If you wanna make the system better, that’s great! It just feels like you are lashing out at the community instead of empathizing. Broadcasting ideals is alright if you only want to vent about it and not actually look for solutions.
Can you imagine me not contributing monetarily but wanting the best for all of us? You are definitely underestimating the number of broke people here, but the things you are campaigning for go straight against the spirit of the movement. Work with what we have to make shit better for all (while somehow hardening against capitalism).
My mention of drugs/booze/cigarettes is completely non-judgemental. I am not saying that is bad if people spend money on that. I am just pointing out that, yes,.some people do spend money on it and they are not expecting to keep partaking in their pleasures for free.
They do not. They are making hundreds of millions of dollars in revenue with their advertising.
Trade and commerce that prioritizes small business is already a big weapon against globalism and Corporatist Capitalism.
Focusing on closed-loop, sustainable economies is a tool against Capitalism.
Community-led investing that prioritizes long-term wealth building is a tool against rent-seeking enterprises that stimulate zero-sum games.
If I am, then the discussion should be “how can we have a sustainable system that gives a fair wage to those working on it , while not stressing those who can not afford even 2 bucks per month?” instead of this “you can not charge from everyone because you are not empathizing.”
Once we reframe the discussion, we should be able to propose things like:
“pay it forward” systems, where those who can afford more pay for those who can not. Let them become responsible for who to invite. (I have implemented this at Communick, by the way, and so far I had only two people paying for others.)
Selling ad space for ethical businesses. Back in 2007 there used to be a network of bloggers who did not want to pollute their pages with adSense, so they got together and created a system where companies would pay $5k to $10k to have one slot and all bloggers committed to display this banner during the whole month. Something like that could be done here as well, if “making money” wasn’t such a capital sin.
focus on making this normie-friendly. Stop with the political bickering and organize the topic-specific instances (which I already offered for other admins), use them to attract a larger audience so that we have more “actually I can pay a few bucks per month” crowd to dilute the “I am anti-establishment but I can not afford to fight against it” crowd that seems to dominate so far.
Simple solution. Mimic what paid online news does. Paywall, but like don’t raise the perimeter anytime someone finds a ladder. Like we have here with the linked archive posts. Definitely a good way to keep out the heavy commies.
Go for it! But you won’t get me to uninstall my adblocker until I am convinced ads are any good to me. Like not the piece of shit manipulations that treat me as a skinner box. Many good examples of incorporating ads into shows, but with dignity and taste and a clear indication that it is an ad.
Also, if the admin deserves compensation for their time, why don’t I get a pretty penny for this? Sure, the admin hosts and supports the frame, but they could twirl their short hairs all night without the buzz.
People are very willing to donate other’s time
Yep. This is it. “Leftists” on Lemmy really love the. exploitation of free labor. As long as it’s DeCeNtrALiZeD exploitation.
If providing a completely voluntary service is too much of a personal burden, the solution is to stop doing it. No one is being exploited, all relationships on Lemmy and Mastadon are completely voluntary by design.
Personally I don’t mind the idea of Lemmy embracing a syndicalist financial model or something of that nature but you’re simply spouting a bunch of entitled nonsense.
“Oh c’mon man, it’s your hobby, right You’d do it anyway?”
Also, it wasn’t exactly just leftists, but also my leftist friends who were always asking for “friend prices” when I drove them around when I drove a taxi. Like… you guys are getting special service, and I’m your friend, you get to skip the hour of waiting and fighting other drunks in the taxi queue.
It also would’ve been different if there was the chances of favours in return.
So like people who could actually help with the labour or in something other way put in work, maybe they’d be okay with just covering the hosting costs, but modding a community isn’t exactly the same work as maintaining the soft- and hardware. Alone, I presume.
And also is the “hosting costs” just like the costs of the services for the hosting, or does it incorporate all the cost for electricity to run the equipment as well?
Is it lack of empathy or greed? I never really could figure that out. Feels like a bit of both.
Seems like bad friends, whatever the political preferences are
Oh they were, yes, you’re 100% correct.
Leveraging connections is both very human and of variable social acceptability depending on a lot of circumstances.
What would actually make them a bad friend is not being willing to return the favor.
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How is this a response to what you replied to?
“Hosting and labor costs money”
“So it’s a lack of technical acumen” -you
What?
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Read again, he is not asking to pay the server bills. It’s 1400€ (so, less than $0,10/active user/month) and he got it fully covered.
You can cut that 5x. You can cut that 10x. You can cut that 100x. It doesn’t matter. You can bet that if he brought down the prices to zero there would still be people saying “why are you asking for money then, it doesn’t cost you anything to run it!” and at the end of the month, he will still be short to make rent.
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Technical acumen?
You do realise things don’t happen just because you know how to do them? You still actually have to do them.
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So youre saying if he just knew how to do it, he wouldn’t actually need to do it?
I know how to build a medieval castle with a moat and I’d have the technical acumen to build large sustainable hydroponic gardens there as well.
So why is it that I don’t have a castle, when I know how to build one?
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