There are only a few legitimate swing states, votes outside swing states don’t matter
In no swing state did third party votes supercede the difference between Kamala and Trump votes. Ie, even if every third party voter, Libertarians included, voted Kamala, she still would’ve lost.
Even under the Democrats, “No Rights” is still the party platform.
Leftists have always supported revolution as the only legitimate means of enacting change, while liberals aid in the constant rightward spiral. Voting is an incredibly small level of political activism, organizing is far more effective.
We all know our political system is “broken” — but what if that’s nottrue? Some say the Republicans and Democrats constitute a wildly successful industry that has colluded to kill off competition, stifle reform, and drive the country apart. So what are you going todo about it?
Can you tell us how the Dems are going to reform the voting system so that people’s choices are fairly represented? No? They have no plans for that because they perceive themselves as beneficiaries of a broken electoral system? Wow it’s almost as if they’re self interested crooks themselves
Edit: people downvoting this are the same people who’d hear about coca cola paramilitaries in South America and then switch to Fanta, thinking they’re voting with their wallets
You spent the whole elections saying that leftists were an irrelevant Demographic who could be safely ignored. And you’ll be saying it again come the next election. It’s only when you need someone to blame a loss on that they matter.
OPs cartoon makes it clear that the dems are oposed to left-wing policies, so commie guy refused to vote against his interests.
The problem isnt commie guy, it’s all the other brainless sheep who keep voting for the same two parties who don’t represent them.
Consider this: if all the people forced to vote opted to vote someone else, then the Dems would really understand why they’re failing, and more, you’d have the basis for an actual third party to from.
But instead you and other dimwits keep preaching the same old 2 party rethoric who has been fucking you over for decades.
The problem isnt commie guy, it’s all the other brainless sheep who keep voting for the same two parties who don’t represent them is definitely commie guy for not understanding that a boring and flawed neoliberal Democrat is preferable to a fascist dictatorship.
Fixed that for you.
Consider this: if all the people forced to vote opted to vote someone else, then the Dems would really understand why they’re failing, and more, you’d have the basis for an actual third party to from.
Wrong answer. That made sense under Clinton vs Bush or Obama vs Romney, not nowadays. We can “consider” your proposal when there’s not a damn fascist dictator threatening to send US citizens to an El Salvadorian gulag for disagreeing with the President.
Then again, commies tend to love gulag’ing people who disagree with them, just ask Stalin… So maybe commie guy sees the gulags as a good thing?
Yeah if you think Bush was an acceptable choice and not a fascist then you don’t really have a leg to stand on with this “commies love gulags” nonsense. You think this El Salvador shit is new? Those of us who were paying attention know that Bush did the same shit, while they did their fair share of torturing alleged “terrorists” with no due process in our own black sites, the worst abuses were conducted in foreign countries like Egypt, when we sent prisoners there knowing full well how they’d be treated. Some of us have been fighting this battle for over 20 years, nice of you to finally wake up and notice now that someone you hate is doing it, but it would be nice if you’d notice when the people you like are doing it too.
It’s so stupid when liberals, defending a system with the largest prison population per capita in the world, with indefinite detention without trial, mass surveillance, etc, still try to take the moral high ground on that issue just because the word “gulag” sounds scary and foreign.
The prisoners Bush had sent to Egypt were not sent from the US, they were sent from different countries that allowed extradition to Egypt. It was disgusting and abhorrent, but it isn’t the same thing as what we’re seeing now.
Flying people from the US to foreign prisons without due process is a blatant violation of the constitution.
The whole point of having extrajudicial torture dungeons is that they are extrajudicial. They may not haven’t sent US citizens to them (although US citizens were killed in extrajudicial drone strikes), but the only “lawyers” they had access to at Guantanamo were people like Ron DeSantis who posed as a lawyer to try to extract information about which methods the victims found most unpleasant, to be shared with their torturers. If that sort of system exists, it can easily be turned against US citizens, as has happened.
Mass surveillance is a blatant violation of the constitution as well, and when the illegal programs were exposed, not only did no one involved in them get punished in any way, they kept doing them and the person who exposed them was hunted to the ends of the earth.
And meanwhile, immigration courts are basically kangaroo courts where young children can be made to defend themselves with no right to an attorney, and that’s been going on for a long time.
There hasn’t been anything close to rule of law in this country for a long time (if ever). Trump is just continuing the path we’ve been trending towards for a long time in a very overt and rapid way.
Compared to Trump? Absofuckinglutely. Bush had no desire to be a dictator. Trump absolutely has ambition to be a dictator, and if you can’t figure out how one of those is worse than the other then you’re too clueless to participate in an adult conversation regarding this topic.
Fascism isn’t a choice, or a policy, it’s Capitalism using brutal methods to defend itself, like when the Democrats sent Israel mountains of bombs to obliterate Palestinians. Fascism is not a distinct economic system, but the same underlying system as Capitalism, only when it’s in crisis and needs to defend itself while pretending it’s qualitatively different.
The Liberal answer to the political problems we see is to perpetuate it indefinately and purely act within the system that selects for whatever brutal methods it needs to sustain itself. This isn’t an answer, it’s approval.
As for gulags, I recommend reading Russian Justice. It’s a good thing to jail fascists, Tsarists, and others who would violently try to overthrow a popular government. Or, are you saying you wouldn’t jail Trump if given the opportunity?
As for gulags, I recommend reading Russian Justice. It’s a good thing to jail fascists, Tsarists, and others who would violently try to overthrow a popular government. Or, are you saying you wouldn’t jail Trump if given the opportunity?
“Tsarists”? LMAO
And who’s the authority on who is or is not a “fascist or tsarist”? You? That makes about as much sense as sending people to El Salvador for being imaginary gang members because some jack ass decided that it was a good idea.
The White Army was a group loyal to the Tsar, and fought the Red Army in order to reinstate the Tsarist system. After the Soviets won the Russian Civil War, many former White Army members were persecuted for their crimes by the Soviet Justice System.
The authority on who was or was not a fascist was the Soviet Justice System, and the people of the Soviet Union. I linked Russian Justice since it does a good job laying out how the USSR’s justice system and courts worked. I think you’re deeply confused if you’re insinuating that I am the one who made those decisions, or intend to do so.
The White Army was a group loyal to the Tsar and blah blah blah commie BS
My man, I am a libertarian. Fuck whatever your interpretation of a big government utopia is, because it is most likely wrong.
That being said, I am fully aware of the flaws in my ideology - and there are many - but I enjoy libertarianism because it allows me to tell people like you to “GET OFF MY LAWN!” and not feel morally wrong for it.
Every single one of those elections, the Dems chanting “us or fascism!!”
It’s kinda like the gun safety debate: we can not discuss it within 72 hrs of a mass shooting.
After 72 hrs, nobody wants to talk about it, or we have another one.
When will the Dems actually oppose fascism, instead of saying they want to?
Additionally, who is that “boring liberal republic” better for? Certainly not Palestinians. Certainly not for union workers on our rail lines. Not for people becoming houseless. Not for queer people. Not for indigenous peeps, either…
So, just for white, straight people, so we need to keep supporting it?
Additionally, who is that “boring liberal republic” better for? Certainly not Palestinians. Certainly not for union workers on our rail lines. Not for people becoming houseless. Not for queer people. Not for indigenous peeps, either Definitely Palestinians. Definitely union workers. Definitely homeless. Definitely queer people. Definitely indigenous people.
Fixed that for you.
If Kamala Harris had won, literally all the groups you just mentioned would be far better off than under a literal fascist dictatorship which Trump’s lackeys want to establish.
Honestly? I’m starting to believe lemmy is, like reddit, filled with a bunch of clueless college kids who haven’t set foot in other parts of the world and have no idea what it’s like to live under a dictatorship, and thus take the rights and freedoms they have completely for granted.
Sadly, Trump is about to teach us all a lesson in authoritarianism - You, myself, and everyone else on the planet.
How would Harris have been better for Palestinians? She was part of an admin that was assisting their genocide and always maintained that she would continue doing that.
That would be true for the 2000 election as well, but Democrats didn’t fight the SC decision and so we got two expensive wars in the subsequent 8 years that some democrats even supported, demonstrating their fascist sympathies.
Lemmy is full of people who want to actually discuss ways to have a better world, unlike you it seems lmao.
You’re trying to argue the status quo to people who saw what the status quo was since Reagan, but you still don’t get it.
I’m so glad my consistent votes for democrats over my life have definitely not lead me to the precipice of fascism… oh wait.
Another reminder that blueMAGA don’t see Palestinians as human.
Every option with any real chance of being elected supported Israel. Unfortunately your choices are essentially Dem, GOP, or one of several people who is definitely going to lose unless you can round up another 60 million or so voters to back them.
Let me say again, the FPTP voting system leads to two dominant parties, but nowhere in mathematics or law does it say the those two have to be Democrats and Republicans. We’ve always had the choice of a different two parties. That the Blue and Red duopoly would lead to fascism via the ratchet effect been clear for nearly 30 years.
I wouldn’t claim that Democrats don’t see the people of Palestine as human, exactly. They may just put it out of mind. Denial is a very potent force.
You’re not wrong. There’s nothing that requires the two parties be Dems and GOP. But you’re not going to overturn one or the other in a single election, and that means losing to the farthest big party from you, likely a few in a row, while that gets resolved. Especially if you try to do it top down instead of building support from local/county offices up.
Basically, if you could get enough third party support, you could either supplant one of the existing parties or force them to shift to stay competitive. The argument is that trying to do so with the office of president when doing so promotes a fast track to outright fascism is a painfully bad tactic.
Same deal, you’re not wrong. At the same time, it has to be done. Voting Democrat to hold off the fascists was, at best, a holding action rather than a viable, long-term strategy. A slow track to fascism, as it were, as they were going to win an election eventually. Democrats weren’t going to fix the problem. For example, we voted for Biden in 2020 to hold off the fascist threat, they attacked the Capitol because they lost, and Biden did next to nothing about it. Hence, the depiction of the party as the pawl in the ratchet mechanism.
Ok. Still doesn’t change the fact that describing the Democrats as “boring and flawed neoliberals” despite their full throated support for genocide in support of a fascist ethnostate is only possible if you don’t consider Palestinians human.
Good. Since we’re the deciding factor, we have increased influence and more negotiating power going forward. Now the democrats (whose slogan is also “No rights!”) might actually listen to our demands next time if they don’t want to eat shit again.
And if they still won’t, then it’s obviously necessary to replace them and that has to start somewhere.
What’s “horrible” about it? It’s a very simple negotiating tactic that even a toddler can understand. The difference is that we aren’t throwing a fit because we didn’t get some toy we wanted or something, we’re throwing a fit because people are being murdered en masse before our eyes. If ever there was an appropriate time to throw a fit, that time is now.
Since our cause is correct and indisputably justified, the only thing that matters is whether the tactic is effective or not. And obviously it is effective, if the other side is being intransigent as they are, then “Do what we want, or else,” packs a lot more punch than “Do what we want, pretty please?”
If you get mad at progressives for not falling in line, start running better candidates.
Since it’s so easy to fall in line, the centrists and neo-liberals should have no problem doing it.
You’re literally just playing into the hands of the ruling class when you spout rhetoric like yours.
hey man remember when the democrats were in the house and senate and obama was president and they dismantled ACORN? haha damn that’s wild, bro.
There are only a few legitimate swing states, votes outside swing states don’t matter
In no swing state did third party votes supercede the difference between Kamala and Trump votes. Ie, even if every third party voter, Libertarians included, voted Kamala, she still would’ve lost.
Even under the Democrats, “No Rights” is still the party platform.
Leftists have always supported revolution as the only legitimate means of enacting change, while liberals aid in the constant rightward spiral. Voting is an incredibly small level of political activism, organizing is far more effective.
The DNC were enacting a genocide of Palestinians.
You just have a stupid voting system
Yep. Democrats are complicit. Check out the podcast episode “Americas Hidden Duopoly” to learn more, it’s the Freakonomics podcast I think.
I’ll try to scrounge up a link: https://freakonomics.com/podcast/americas-hidden-duopoly-2/
We all know our political system is “broken” — but what if that’s not true? Some say the Republicans and Democrats constitute a wildly successful industry that has colluded to kill off competition, stifle reform, and drive the country apart. So what are you going to do about it?Why not both?
It seems simple enough to me
Hate the syatem
But also recognize that syatem exists
Work both in and out of the system to change things.
Or we just let the people who ratchet to the right keep power so they can keep ratcheting to the right and then wonder why it keeps happening
Can you tell us how the Dems are going to reform the voting system so that people’s choices are fairly represented? No? They have no plans for that because they perceive themselves as beneficiaries of a broken electoral system? Wow it’s almost as if they’re self interested crooks themselves
Edit: people downvoting this are the same people who’d hear about coca cola paramilitaries in South America and then switch to Fanta, thinking they’re voting with their wallets
You spent the whole elections saying that leftists were an irrelevant Demographic who could be safely ignored. And you’ll be saying it again come the next election. It’s only when you need someone to blame a loss on that they matter.
I dont get it.
OPs cartoon makes it clear that the dems are oposed to left-wing policies, so commie guy refused to vote against his interests.
The problem isnt commie guy, it’s all the other brainless sheep who keep voting for the same two parties who don’t represent them.
Consider this: if all the people forced to vote opted to vote someone else, then the Dems would really understand why they’re failing, and more, you’d have the basis for an actual third party to from.
But instead you and other dimwits keep preaching the same old 2 party rethoric who has been fucking you over for decades.
Fixed that for you.
Wrong answer. That made sense under Clinton vs Bush or Obama vs Romney, not nowadays. We can “consider” your proposal when there’s not a damn fascist dictator threatening to send US citizens to an El Salvadorian gulag for disagreeing with the President.
Then again, commies tend to love gulag’ing people who disagree with them, just ask Stalin… So maybe commie guy sees the gulags as a good thing?
Yeah if you think Bush was an acceptable choice and not a fascist then you don’t really have a leg to stand on with this “commies love gulags” nonsense. You think this El Salvador shit is new? Those of us who were paying attention know that Bush did the same shit, while they did their fair share of torturing alleged “terrorists” with no due process in our own black sites, the worst abuses were conducted in foreign countries like Egypt, when we sent prisoners there knowing full well how they’d be treated. Some of us have been fighting this battle for over 20 years, nice of you to finally wake up and notice now that someone you hate is doing it, but it would be nice if you’d notice when the people you like are doing it too.
It’s so stupid when liberals, defending a system with the largest prison population per capita in the world, with indefinite detention without trial, mass surveillance, etc, still try to take the moral high ground on that issue just because the word “gulag” sounds scary and foreign.
The prisoners Bush had sent to Egypt were not sent from the US, they were sent from different countries that allowed extradition to Egypt. It was disgusting and abhorrent, but it isn’t the same thing as what we’re seeing now.
Flying people from the US to foreign prisons without due process is a blatant violation of the constitution.
The whole point of having extrajudicial torture dungeons is that they are extrajudicial. They may not haven’t sent US citizens to them (although US citizens were killed in extrajudicial drone strikes), but the only “lawyers” they had access to at Guantanamo were people like Ron DeSantis who posed as a lawyer to try to extract information about which methods the victims found most unpleasant, to be shared with their torturers. If that sort of system exists, it can easily be turned against US citizens, as has happened.
Mass surveillance is a blatant violation of the constitution as well, and when the illegal programs were exposed, not only did no one involved in them get punished in any way, they kept doing them and the person who exposed them was hunted to the ends of the earth.
And meanwhile, immigration courts are basically kangaroo courts where young children can be made to defend themselves with no right to an attorney, and that’s been going on for a long time.
There hasn’t been anything close to rule of law in this country for a long time (if ever). Trump is just continuing the path we’ve been trending towards for a long time in a very overt and rapid way.
Compared to Trump? Absofuckinglutely. Bush had no desire to be a dictator. Trump absolutely has ambition to be a dictator, and if you can’t figure out how one of those is worse than the other then you’re too clueless to participate in an adult conversation regarding this topic.
Fascism isn’t a choice, or a policy, it’s Capitalism using brutal methods to defend itself, like when the Democrats sent Israel mountains of bombs to obliterate Palestinians. Fascism is not a distinct economic system, but the same underlying system as Capitalism, only when it’s in crisis and needs to defend itself while pretending it’s qualitatively different.
The Liberal answer to the political problems we see is to perpetuate it indefinately and purely act within the system that selects for whatever brutal methods it needs to sustain itself. This isn’t an answer, it’s approval.
As for gulags, I recommend reading Russian Justice. It’s a good thing to jail fascists, Tsarists, and others who would violently try to overthrow a popular government. Or, are you saying you wouldn’t jail Trump if given the opportunity?
“Tsarists”? LMAO
And who’s the authority on who is or is not a “fascist or tsarist”? You? That makes about as much sense as sending people to El Salvador for being imaginary gang members because some jack ass decided that it was a good idea.
Due process exists for a reason. Shut up, tankie.
The White Army was a group loyal to the Tsar, and fought the Red Army in order to reinstate the Tsarist system. After the Soviets won the Russian Civil War, many former White Army members were persecuted for their crimes by the Soviet Justice System.
The authority on who was or was not a fascist was the Soviet Justice System, and the people of the Soviet Union. I linked Russian Justice since it does a good job laying out how the USSR’s justice system and courts worked. I think you’re deeply confused if you’re insinuating that I am the one who made those decisions, or intend to do so.
My man, I am a libertarian. Fuck whatever your interpretation of a big government utopia is, because it is most likely wrong.
That being said, I am fully aware of the flaws in my ideology - and there are many - but I enjoy libertarianism because it allows me to tell people like you to “GET OFF MY LAWN!” and not feel morally wrong for it.
Hey, beats being a fucking commie.
In your libertarian society, what happens if I’m on your lawn with 3 of my friends? And we refuse to “get off your lawn”? Then what will you do?
Instead of malding, coping, and seething, would it kill you to engage in the “marketplace of ideas” libertarians tend to love?
Every single one of those elections, the Dems chanting “us or fascism!!”
It’s kinda like the gun safety debate: we can not discuss it within 72 hrs of a mass shooting.
After 72 hrs, nobody wants to talk about it, or we have another one.
When will the Dems actually oppose fascism, instead of saying they want to?
Additionally, who is that “boring liberal republic” better for? Certainly not Palestinians. Certainly not for union workers on our rail lines. Not for people becoming houseless. Not for queer people. Not for indigenous peeps, either…
So, just for white, straight people, so we need to keep supporting it?
Fixed that for you.
If Kamala Harris had won, literally all the groups you just mentioned would be far better off than under a literal fascist dictatorship which Trump’s lackeys want to establish.
Honestly? I’m starting to believe lemmy is, like reddit, filled with a bunch of clueless college kids who haven’t set foot in other parts of the world and have no idea what it’s like to live under a dictatorship, and thus take the rights and freedoms they have completely for granted.
Sadly, Trump is about to teach us all a lesson in authoritarianism - You, myself, and everyone else on the planet.
How would Harris have been better for Palestinians? She was part of an admin that was assisting their genocide and always maintained that she would continue doing that.
That would be true for the 2000 election as well, but Democrats didn’t fight the SC decision and so we got two expensive wars in the subsequent 8 years that some democrats even supported, demonstrating their fascist sympathies.
Lemmy is full of people who want to actually discuss ways to have a better world, unlike you it seems lmao.
You’re trying to argue the status quo to people who saw what the status quo was since Reagan, but you still don’t get it.
I’m so glad my consistent votes for democrats over my life have definitely not lead me to the precipice of fascism… oh wait.
Another reminder that blueMAGA don’t see Palestinians as human.
Yeah, just non-citizens, as is right and proper.
Every option with any real chance of being elected supported Israel. Unfortunately your choices are essentially Dem, GOP, or one of several people who is definitely going to lose unless you can round up another 60 million or so voters to back them.
Let me say again, the FPTP voting system leads to two dominant parties, but nowhere in mathematics or law does it say the those two have to be Democrats and Republicans. We’ve always had the choice of a different two parties. That the Blue and Red duopoly would lead to fascism via the ratchet effect been clear for nearly 30 years.
I wouldn’t claim that Democrats don’t see the people of Palestine as human, exactly. They may just put it out of mind. Denial is a very potent force.
You’re not wrong. There’s nothing that requires the two parties be Dems and GOP. But you’re not going to overturn one or the other in a single election, and that means losing to the farthest big party from you, likely a few in a row, while that gets resolved. Especially if you try to do it top down instead of building support from local/county offices up.
Basically, if you could get enough third party support, you could either supplant one of the existing parties or force them to shift to stay competitive. The argument is that trying to do so with the office of president when doing so promotes a fast track to outright fascism is a painfully bad tactic.
Same deal, you’re not wrong. At the same time, it has to be done. Voting Democrat to hold off the fascists was, at best, a holding action rather than a viable, long-term strategy. A slow track to fascism, as it were, as they were going to win an election eventually. Democrats weren’t going to fix the problem. For example, we voted for Biden in 2020 to hold off the fascist threat, they attacked the Capitol because they lost, and Biden did next to nothing about it. Hence, the depiction of the party as the pawl in the ratchet mechanism.
Ok. Still doesn’t change the fact that describing the Democrats as “boring and flawed neoliberals” despite their full throated support for genocide in support of a fascist ethnostate is only possible if you don’t consider Palestinians human.
deleted by creator
I’m 13 and this is deep
As a colorblind person, this seems perfectly reasonable.
Good. Since we’re the deciding factor, we have increased influence and more negotiating power going forward. Now the democrats (whose slogan is also “No rights!”) might actually listen to our demands next time if they don’t want to eat shit again.
And if they still won’t, then it’s obviously necessary to replace them and that has to start somewhere.
hehe, I agree with you. If we don’t get what we want we root for the worst possible outcome, and just hope that we are important then!
The meme is about voting third party, not Republican.
But yes, there have to be consequences to us not getting what we want. It’s a very simple concept.
that’s a horrible concept
What’s “horrible” about it? It’s a very simple negotiating tactic that even a toddler can understand. The difference is that we aren’t throwing a fit because we didn’t get some toy we wanted or something, we’re throwing a fit because people are being murdered en masse before our eyes. If ever there was an appropriate time to throw a fit, that time is now.
Since our cause is correct and indisputably justified, the only thing that matters is whether the tactic is effective or not. And obviously it is effective, if the other side is being intransigent as they are, then “Do what we want, or else,” packs a lot more punch than “Do what we want, pretty please?”