Why? Not everyone likes to have vacation with noisy kids around. Or be in a restaurant with annoying children.
I have kids. I unterstand everyone who wants a no kids holiday. Especially if you don’t have any.
So creating quiet places for relaxation is not allowed anymore? Because a child “shouts, laughs and moves” and that’s just how children are, no need to try and teach it to be quiet in certain spaces. But you are also not allowed to exclude them. These childfree places mostly exist because too many parents think children need to be loud and disruptiv everywhere they go and they can’t possibly teach them to be quiet for an hour or two.
This is actually a kinda solved problem.
Visit a casino resort. I did it once, looking for a hotel, didn’t realize it was a casino. But no children anywhere near.
Just quiet and calm atmosphere.
the point is probably that lots of places dont allow children which incentivizes people to not have children, and the government would prefer people to have more children
Is that so in France? I’ve only ever been there on holiday but I can’t imagine that “lots of places don’t allow children”. Museums were full of kids and you could see many in restaurants. As long as they are behaving I don’t think they are excluded much except for some hotels, spas or saunas. It’s ok to have some “adult-only spaces” just like there are kid-spaces like playgrounds, children’s museums etc. But I don’t have kids in France so I don’t know how many kid-free zones there are. I just noticed a lot of museums having tours or areas for kids.
I suggest the legislature double as a pre-school, then, and see how they like it.
Interesting. Culturally, France seems like the most child-hostile country in western Europe. I wonder if this is them trying to make children more acceptable in public. Good luck France! You’ll have to get over yourself first. Can’t take yourself too seriously when children are in the mix.
She said: “A child shouts, laughs and moves … we are institutionalising the idea that silence is a luxury and the absence of children is a luxury.”
While it is nice not to be around screaming children, I’ve never thought of it as a luxury. Even “luxury” seats on airplanes can’t promise to be child free. Children aren’t a protected class as far as I know so there should be no problem with private businesses that want to exclude them.
I have no kids but I love kids and I like being around kids sometimes but, sometimes I like it when they aren’t around. I did a camping trip last week and one of my friends left early because a family showed up to their site after dark and the parents let the kids run around and scream even after we explained that it was after quiet hours. She couldn’t take it any more and left in the middle of the night.
So in my opinion, there need to be places that are child free or at least days and times when kids aren’t allowed. Many of my local museums offer 21 and over evenings where they serve alcohol and you can enjoy the exhibits without children around and it’s a very nice compromise.
I agree with you. However, i have kids and I agree that silence is a kind of luxury i would be willing to pay for.
Sorry, some assholes flaunted the rules, your group asked them to stop and when they did not, someone from your group left?
That isn’t a problem that has to do with children. It could have as easily been a radio.
It could’ve been a radio, but it wasn’t. It was kids screaming and parents not taking responsibility for their children. To me as the one in that situation, it certainly seemed like the kids and their parents were the problem.
The article she talks about child free campgrounds so I felt this was an appropriate anecdote to share.
I also wasn’t advocating that that campground should have been child free, my story was meant to illustrate why some people prefer adult only spaces.
Yeah, I get it.
But what I am saying is: if we just enforced the existing rules we wouldn’t need to be talking about banning whole classes of people, right?
There is nothing about the situation you described that is exclusively caused by children.
Many kids are just normal kids, sometimes they are loud. But then there are some who are absolute hellspawn, because of their parents. But we can’t make rules that say “useless parents with hellspawn not allowed” so we have to say “no children”.
It’s like alcohol. Most people are responsible with it and don’t get drunk and misbehave, but a minority ruins it for everyone else by puking, smashing bottles, and just generally being a nuisance, so the rules have to say no alcohol at all.
Yes, in this one very specific situation, enforcing the rules would’ve helped. It’s still doesn’t change the fact that if it was an adults only campground, this one very specific situation wouldn’t have happened in the first place.
Children aren’t a protected class and there are plenty of business and establishments that they are not allowed to be in, usually because it’s illegal for underage people to be there. But, what is wrong with a private business, like a campground or a a restaurant being adults only? How is detrimental to the kids?
Yeah, that would be the best case scenario, but we live in reality, where you just don’t get these things.
I recently went camping in France, so I can tell you that there are asshole parents, that do not have their children under control, but the problem goes deeper: Take a baby. Babies will wake up in the night because they are hungry or uncomfortable and they can only communicate with screaming. And parents will care about them, but initially the screaming of a baby is evolutionary designed to wake up people. Tents really do not have any noise protection - so if a baby starts crying in the middle of the night, everyone around will be awake. And there is nothing a camp ground can do rulewise against screaming babies, except banning babies. And let me tell you: It sucks when you’re on vacation and can’t get a good nights sleep.
And yes, that’s a problem. Banning babies sucks. Banning children from playing sucks. Even older children will cry or scream, that’s in their nature. Being annoyed by other peoples children suckt, too.
The basic issue was one family deciding the “quiet hours” rules didn’t apply to them, regardless of whether the disturbance was unruly children or a radio. And depending on what kind of campground it was, it may not have been possible to find the managers/rangers/whoever to get them to shut up. I’ve been in situations where a police response, especially to a low-priority noise complaint, is hours away - if you get one at all. I’ve also been in situations where, when pressed to shut up, they’ll do so - but only for ten minutes or so before they resume their full cacaphony.
Ok, but we are in a thread about child-free places. 🤷♂️
Yes, and your original comment was that the person who left was over-reacting to the stimulus of the children, and would have been just as likely to have left if it was a radio.
“The absence of children is a luxury, that’s why we’re making it illegal for regular people!”
Either it’s a luxury and I should be allowed to pay for it, or it’s as illegal as weed and it’s getting banned.
Problem with their stance is that most people with common sense will realise that bringing roudy children along is the real luxury. But it’s hard as Commissioner for Childhood in a country with low birth rates to tell people to do their damned parenting job.
The wording is bad. But here, we’re talking about banning the ban, ie. it’s the children who are banned. In principle, I don’t mind banning the ban, this feels like discrimination against the children and people with children. But I have children, so I’m biased that way. Of course, uncivilized behavior should not be tolerated, be it children or adults.
I’m aware of the wording.
Thing is, as the commissioner said themselves, kids are gonna make noise. And I’m perfectly fine with that, as part of their growing up. But peace & quiet is a fundamental right, that’s why I’m not allowed to play the drums at 3 AM. And sometimes, just for a week of two of holiday, I wouldn’t mind it all day long. In fact, I kinda need to zone out of the real world for a bit once in a while, and that’s a luxury I’m willing to pay for.
But you can’t call quiet environments a luxury and then ban providing it. Drinking alcohol is also a luxury. You can’t expect to do it everywhere, but you certainly can ban kids from entering an area where alcohol is expected to be served. And if you’re going to a theme park, don’t expect either luxury, because that’s a place where children are prioritised.
Only thing I’ld argue is that if you’re banning kids due to noise, you gotta ban all noise.
But I have children, so I’m biased that way.
That was your choice. People should be able to go places and not have to hang out with your kids.
Now, why would you make it personal. Why my kids? I wouldn’t want my kids to hang near a person like you (I actually don’t care, but just so you know that it hurts when people say it like that). My point is, this is not a simple question to discuss and the least it needs is dragging it to a personal level. A more important question is should this even be regulated? And where do you draw the line? Like, I don’t think it’s a good idea to allow children in unsafe places and in places that exposes them to nudity or explicit content, but I would also very much object if I wasn’t allowed to a certain restaurant with a kid, but the pets are allowed. Where is the line? Certain age? Certain gender? Skin color? Pet? At which point is it discrimination? In the end, this comes out as a sort of positive discrimination to make people with children feel less alienated and unwelcome. As a guy with kids, I can tell you I’ve felt that way too many times. I would certainly not want to ruin anyone’s good time and in fact - my kids behave in that way. I don’t like being disallowed to take my kids anywhere, though I’m certainly not going to take them to places I don’t feel they belong. Children should be allowed in more places, but children should not be allowed to behave any different than any normal adult - if you make noise, you’re out, just like a drunk obnoxious guest, for example. Unfortunately, it’s a similar situation like with people with pets. People who are the least responsible are the first to take their pets/children where they should not go. It’s the parents who are a problem, not children. Not pets.
WHERE ARE PEOPLE GOING TO FUCK.
Wouldn’t this also include gay and/or nudist resorts? Are those a thing in France?
What about night clubs or pubs? This could get interesting.
A lot of nudist resorts already allow children.
They are. At least according to the French erotica I’ve seen.
Pardon moi, there definitely should be no kids zones.
Thank god for low birth rates (and school days).
I don’t see the problem. We have women only places too.
As if I needed more reasons not to go to France.
