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Honestly for cool Soviet kinda anti-industrialist vibe movies you should just watch Stalker by Tarkovsky. It’s probably the coolest movie.
The other one I like to compare is: in the decades that the Berlin Wall - the ultimate symbol of eeeevil gommunist authoritian totalitarianism - existed, fewer people were killed attempting to cross the wall than were murdered by a single US bomb that landed on a girls’ school in Iran in a single day.
I do not know the number of Palestinians that have been murdered by the IOF just for approaching the intentionally vague “yellow line” since the “ceasefire” months ago, but I’m certain it’s higher than the Berlin Wall fatalities.
Children are currently 50 percent of the population in the Gaza strip if I’m correct. That should tell you more than enough how bad things are.
Israel is testament to how the West fooled everyone.
I’m seeing numbers between 140 and 327 people having been killed at the Berlin wall and 153 people at the girls’ school. That that’s besides the point.
I’d say that suffering isn’t measured in fatalities, neither is mortality. Groups can be oppressed resulting in enormous suffering, but with relatively few fatalities as a result. See for example the Taliban and women. There is also the factor of intentionality. The US likely didn’t intentionally bomb a school, but the wall was carefully designed.
Nonetheless, the reason the Iran war started is of course exceptionally dumb than compared to the other wars that the US started. So your point probably still stands. Sacrificing lives for petty reasons is evil.
The US likely didn’t intentionally bomb a school
They accidentally bombed 600 schools in under a month? https://www.aa.com.tr/en/middle-east/us-israeli-attacks-damage-over-85-000-civilian-sites-in-iran-red-crescent-chief-says/3878434
And they accidentally bombed the school that just so happened to be over-represented by the children of navy officers they threatened the day before?
180 were killed in the American bombing of Minab school.
AND WORSE
That was not the only school bombed.
Yeah I like the sentiment, but no Chernobyl absolutely did not have such a small effect. Minimizing these things, especially when so well known, just fucks up our position. Reality denial isn’t an effective way to advocate or to make people aware of the horrors of capitalism. All it does is train the average person to assume left wing points are childishly exaggerated. This is, in part, why capitalist propaganda is so easy.
Here we just accept the official number and ignore all other effects. If we took the same path with the Bhopaal disaster, we’d have to ignore all the non-fatal poisonings and believe uncritically the official instant death count of just over 2,200 ignoring any deaths to come afterwards. That would be stupid
Chernobyl was a terrible disaster that harmed an absurd amount of people, de-homed thousands, and damaged the ecosystem of the wider area. Its effects and danger are still present to this day and could have been much, much worse if not for the work of those who fixed the massive fuck up.
Both the Bhopal disaster and the Chernobyl disaster were bred by incompetence, corruption, and a general failure to care for the worker and the general population.
Now, if we were to keep a leaderboard, capitalism wins by many miles in the awfulness department. That’s the note we should take, that’s the drum we should beat.
It wasn’t socialism that caused Chernobyl. If the workers, those who built and conceived of the soviet nuclear reactors, were in charge they would have put in the safe guards they advocated for well before this disaster. They were not allowed to and the consequence was a meltdown. That’s why we should give the power to the worker. The Bhopal disaster? Capital was the determiner for who had power, and those in power caused the disaster. It was the fault of capitalism as capitalism was allowed to build Union Carbide with little in its way.
Edit: Changed Russian to soviet, re-aranged paragraphs, added clarity
Critically, the working classes were in charge of Chernobyl. Their mistakes were mistakes made by workers. The worker is not infallible.
The chernobyl disaster also had the chance to be much, much worse than it was. The only reason it wasn’t worse was the sacrifices of the people.
Board representation for workers needs to be a universal rallying cry
EVERY WORKER A MEMBER OF THE BOARD!
Hey its the guy helping me find my gun
My dad had just gotten me a hamster and we fed it lettuce that was affected. Fuckers killed my hamster. I’m just glad I didn’t eat it I guess. Poor little guy, I was heartbroken.
https://www.unep.org/news-and-stories/story/how-chernobyl-has-become-unexpected-haven-wildlife
The Chernobyl Exclusion Zone has become a haven for wildlife, with species such as lynx, bison, and deer thriving in the area due to the absence of human activity for over three decades. This has led to a richer forest ecosystem and increased biodiversity, making it one of the largest nature reserves in mainland Europe.
Also even if you take the most exaggerated numbers about Chernobyl and Fukushima combined, it’s still just something we should just ignore. It was a small blip. Per megawatthour produced, nuclear energy is still by far the safest energy, safer than solar (because people fall off of roofs).
Instead you’re not just resisting, you’re actually angrily rebuking and scolding OP’s attempt to put these two catastrophes into perspective. You apply a double standard to how factually accurate a shitpost has to be vs the global capitalist propaganda machine.
Capitalist propaganda is effective.
If the workers, those who built and conceived of the soviet nuclear reactors, were in charge they would have put in the safe guards they advocated for well before this disaster. They were not allowed to and the consequence was a meltdown. That’s why we should give the power to the worker.
if this can’t happen in a communist nation, what hope is there for any other worker?
Russia was never communist. They were a dictatorship dressed up in communist clothing. If the workers ever controlled the means of production in a nation, I’d love to hear about it.
The working classes were the dictators of production and distribution in the USSR, production was collectively owned and democratically planned.
that’s a fascinating take; what makes you believe this?
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The USSR during Stalins time was a dictatorship masquerading as communism.
Moldy cold war propaganda is moldy.
I don’t want to be the guy arguing on the Internet, but just read the Wikipedia article on communism here. When the Russian people toppled their last monarch, they never actually went full communism.
Wikipedia
this explains a lot about why you believe this.
would you still believe wikipedia if i shared freedom of information act releases that directly contradict wikipedia? (the releases also contradict npr, cnn, cbs, bbc, etc.)
I am always open to the truth. Please, do share.
go read wikipedia’s page about north korea: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/North_Korea
and then read the foia releases about north korea (or ateast the ones you can still access online): https://lemmygrad.ml/post/11749952/8255268
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If you think Wikipedia is biased, then I have nothing further to say to you. Enjoy OAN, News Max, Fox News, and all that other right wing horse shit. Wikipedia is community consensus. It’s the only place I get my “news” from.
Wikipedia is biased by nature as a secondary source, just towards the political paradigm so you don’t recognize it as easily. In fact, here’s a Wikipedia page you might want to check out: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Criticism_of_Wikipedia
yes, wikipedia is community consensus and community consensus once was that iraq had wmd’s – the foia proved otherwise. consensus isn’t truth; it’s just the most popular opinion at the time.
the foia gives you what the us government tries to hide. it is literally the us government itself being legally forced to share its secrets to the american public because of a law that was passed decades before the us gov’t became fully captured by corporate interests and the epstein class.
You mean the workers that control the means of production in socialist China??
The billionaires are working class there too?
The billionaires that don’t control the means of production?
How’d they hoard the wealth from the companies they’re in?
Same way they do in America. Only difference is they’re either consolidated into the government, so the workers own the means of production, or they say no, and get executed.
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Tesseract vibes
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Im afraid of people i disagree with
Yet here you are. Rent free lad
Yet here you are
👋
Just for your information: That “Chernobyl killed less than 100 people” is wrong:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Deaths_due_to_the_Chernobyl_disaster
It is also totally unhonestly framed in order to trick you. “less than 100 people died in 1986”, but it ignores that most deaths will be due to cancer a few years later. So fuck this guy spreading propaganda bullshit.
It is not wrong. As I have already posted, although the 2005 report of the Chernobyl Forum concluded with expected 4000 excess deaths after the event itself, the used model (LNT) is highly contested and with the dosages most people were exposed to not useful.
It is expected that all in all fewer than 100 people will die because of chernobyl (including the ~50 people killed by the explosion and the ASR right after it).
The Rational View podcast with Dr. Al Scott: Gerry Thomas and the UNSCEAR reports
Link to episode: https://therationalview.podbean.com/e/gerry-thomas-and-the-unscear-reports/
Link to media: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/r8t8zh/TRV-GerryThomas.mp3
fuck off germ
in the end estimated 50-60.000 people died from cancer related to Chernobyl.
The estimate of 50,000–60,000 Chernobyl cancer deaths is a widely cited, worst-case projection, but it is crucial to understand that this figure is not a factual count. It is a theoretical calculation derived from the linear no-threshold (LNT) model, a framework that is fundamentally flawed and inappropriate for assessing the health impact of low-dose radiation exposure.
- 29 relief workers died from Acute Radiation Sickness (ARS) shortly after the accident.
- As of 2005, only fewer than 50 deaths were directly linked to the radiation exposure from the accident itself. This is the most solid figure based on actual evidence.
Again, because my other comment is not visible to many of you:
The estimate of 50,000–60,000 Chernobyl cancer deaths is a widely cited, worst-case projection, but it is crucial to understand that this figure is not a factual count. It is a theoretical calculation derived from the linear no-threshold (LNT) model, a framework that is fundamentally flawed and inappropriate for assessing the health impact of low-dose radiation exposure.
- 29 relief workers died from Acute Radiation Sickness (ARS) shortly after the accident.
- As of 2005, only fewer than 50 deaths were directly linked to the radiation exposure from the accident itself. This is the most solid figure based on actual evidence.
A total of up to four thousand people could eventually die of radiation exposure from the Chernobyl nuclear power plant (NPP) accident nearly 20 years ago, an international team of more than 100 scientists has concluded.
As of mid-2005, however, fewer than 50 deaths had been directly attributed to radiation from the disaster, almost all being highly exposed rescue workers, many who died within months of the accident but others who died as late as 2004.
The new numbers are presented in a landmark digest report, “Chernobyl’s Legacy: Health, Environmental and Socio-Economic Impacts,” just released by the Chernobyl Forum. The digest, based on a three-volume, 600-page report and incorporating the work of hundreds of scientists, economists and health experts, assesses the 20-year impact of the largest nuclear accident in history. The Forum is made up of 8 UN specialized agencies, including the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), World Health Organization (WHO), United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UN-OCHA), United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation (UNSCEAR), and the World Bank, as well as the governments of Belarus, Russia and Ukraine.
https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/chernobyl-true-scale-accident
What about Dow chemical, or Monsanto?
The point isn’t that Chernobyl was more dangerous. The point is that the tweet isn’t being honest.
The tweet is being honest. The Numbers are correct.
If interested: The Rational View podcast with Dr. Al Scott: Gerry Thomas and the UNSCEAR reports
Link to episode: https://therationalview.podbean.com/e/gerry-thomas-and-the-unscear-reports/
Link to media: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/r8t8zh/TRV-GerryThomas.mp3
You can’t see the other reply so:
A total of up to four thousand people could eventually die of radiation exposure from the Chernobyl nuclear power plant (NPP) accident nearly 20 years ago, an international team of more than 100 scientists has concluded.
As of mid-2005, however, fewer than 50 deaths had been directly attributed to radiation from the disaster, almost all being highly exposed rescue workers, many who died within months of the accident but others who died as late as 2004.
The new numbers are presented in a landmark digest report, “Chernobyl’s Legacy: Health, Environmental and Socio-Economic Impacts,” just released by the Chernobyl Forum. The digest, based on a three-volume, 600-page report and incorporating the work of hundreds of scientists, economists and health experts, assesses the 20-year impact of the largest nuclear accident in history. The Forum is made up of 8 UN specialized agencies, including the International Atomic Energy Agency (IAEA), World Health Organization (WHO), United Nations Development Programme (UNDP), Food and Agriculture Organization (FAO), United Nations Environment Programme (UNEP), United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs (UN-OCHA), United Nations Scientific Committee on the Effects of Atomic Radiation (UNSCEAR), and the World Bank, as well as the governments of Belarus, Russia and Ukraine.
https://www.iaea.org/newscenter/pressreleases/chernobyl-true-scale-accident
The other reply that you can’t see:
The tweet is being honest. The Numbers are correct.
If interested: The Rational View podcast with Dr. Al Scott: Gerry Thomas and the UNSCEAR reports
Link to episode: https://therationalview.podbean.com/e/gerry-thomas-and-the-unscear-reports/
Link to media: https://mcdn.podbean.com/mf/web/r8t8zh/TRV-GerryThomas.mp3
Thank you! I didn’t think about defederation. o.O
You didn’t see my reply elsewhere in the thread. The tweet is dishonest because it’s deliberately excluding the deaths from long term health issues in the Chernobyl while including them in the Bhopal numbers.
I already figured out for myself that Chernobyl was still less deadly than Bhopal and I never claimed otherwise.
Maybe I’m interpreting things wrong but the study is counting the long term health issues in the 50 total deaths, 20 years after the accident is long term no?
I got lost in the sauce a bit. The tweet is still comparing different statics. Chernobyl had less then 100 deaths in the first year, but thousands more deaths from cancer in the following year. Those were excluded from mention.
Bhopal had 16,000 deaths in the first year and 500,000 “nonfatally poisoned” casualties. Those almost certainty lead to premature deaths and if we’re including those, we also need to be including the long term cancer deaths from Chernobyl.
The study is saying that the projection is 4k but they can only attribute with confidence 50 death related with the disaster.
many who died within months of the accident but others who died as late as 2004.
Late as 2004 is saying that they are counting the following years
Literally whataboutism
The point is the OP screenshot being disingenuous.
Your point can also be true
I mean what about ww2? All terrible disasters, but the concept was “chernobyl was not small made bigger by capitalism for fearmongering, it was huge all along”. Then we can also discuss how terrible and how many victims capitalism brought, just don’t base it on a lie or you’ll just loose the trust of other people. Whataboutism doesn’t help either, you are deflecting when you already have a lot of other potential arguments. Be better.
Capitalism has killed over 100 million people directly over the last 100 years.
Every year ~10 million people starve to death or die of easily preventable disease. These deaths are directly attributable to capitalism, as the global system of economics and distribution. It simply isn’t profitable to the capitalists to prevent these deaths.
So your number is way short. Every ten years capitalism kills 100 million just from starvation and disease.
Thank you for the correction.
I feel like this is a bit of an apples to oranges comparison. You should compare Chernobyl to Fukushima and 3 mile island. All of these accidents involved gross incompetence, but the incompetence at Chernobyl was the grossest for any large nuclear disaster in history.
When people think of a stereotypical ghoulish corporation that would melt their workers into glue after they collapsed from working 50 years in a mine for scrip they are thinking about Union Carbide.
It’s because of the potential. Had Chernobyl gone extra wrong (eg had the people in charge there not responded correctly), millions could be hurt, and not just in the Soviet Union. It also dominated the news for months in Europe, with the memory of having to throw away certain homegrown vegetables due to radiation being engraved into the collective consciousness.
Additionally the Bhopal catastrophe happened to Indians and people in the West generally care little for them, due to racism and distance.
No, it’s because it made excellent propaganda, lol.
So Fukushima was anti Japanese propaganda all along?
Do you think that?
There can be many reasons for a thing to occur. I think you’re both right
Sure, because it was genuinely bad and public Soviet denials regarding the severity of what had occurred didn’t exactly help their image.
UCC had participated in decades of previous instances of “environmental negligence in every part of the world”, directing its “responsibility… to its shareholders”, and numerous dealings with local and international political and economic powers.
Wait_its_all_about_shareholders_Always_has_been.jpg
When the corporate world is essentially the prisoners dilemma run by autocrats, what do you expect?
They only paid $470 million (equivalent to $1.03 billion in 2024)?? That’s not even 56 k$ (2024) per person. What in the fuck.
It’s also posted in the !workingclasscalendar@lemmy.world: https://lemmy.world/post/39614927
I missed this, thank you for sharing.
Murder is only illegal if you’re not a corporation or government. If you are its cool. Have fun, don’t die…!
Bhopal was in the news for a while. It was the lead story on the nightly news for at least a week. I think nuclear accidents have more staying power due to fear of the unknown. The movie The China Syndrome came out a few years before and many thought they were witnessing the end of the world.
I’m one of today’s lucky 10,000 for Bhopal. Horrific.
TIL Chernobyl has been re categorised as an oopsie
more of an oopsie than a murder squad murdering people ig
As someone who was alive and nearly a legal adult at this time, I can say that the Bhopal disaster was widely reported on by mainstream media. It’s not all that well-remembered today, but neither would Chernobyl be if not for that miniseries and the memes it generated. It’s less the result of capitalist propaganda and more the result of our innate apathy towards what happens to brown people halfway around the world.
Alive for neither; one of those is taught in US history classes, the other is not. The miniseries gave it a resurgence for sure, but even before that “Chernobyl” has been a proper noun on the list of key words to associate with the Cold War.
What do you think the Chernobyl series was exactly, and why do you think it was made?
A Marxist-Leninist hitpiece on Gorbachev’s revisionism, obviously
The british accents are a metaphor for party degradation due to destalinization
🤣
but neither would Chernobyl be if not for that miniseries and the memes it generated.
What? Chernobyl was widely known between 1986 and 2019. The whole world isn’t memes, bro.
There is a miniseries about Bhopal on Netflix. It’s done in a similar fashion to the Chernobyl one.
Idk how accurate it was though, but they did not portray union carbide positively
I knew about Bhopal, but I didn’t know it was Union Carbide. Fun fact: Union Carbide ran the Oak Ridge enrichment site for the Manhattan project. They also created the largest American industrial disaster with the Hawk’s Nest tunnel disaster. It killed over 700 miners from silicosis by ignoring safety practices. They were bought by Dow Chemicals in 2001. I guess Dow didn’t like the competition in the “be a horrible chemical company” market.
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