The only thing worse than an echo chamber is letting a self-created bad idea fester in the head.
I came to the conclusion a few months ago that software developers and coders who worked at Meta, Google, Amazon, etc are as culprit as their CEOs and the company itself. I will lay down my points below, but I understand that this might be a logical extreme of my distaste for these corporations.
Here’s my rationale:
- Actions of the company they serve: The corporations they serve actively disenfranchise users, track them, sell their private / personal information to unscrupulous parties without any care on how it affects the person, or the society. They thrive on engagement rather than content. They have “commodified” the fundamental right to privacy. This has real world implications that has directly resulted in the spread of misinformation, political unrest, threatened elections, riots, and deaths of thousands of people.
- Awareness of the consequences: By virtue of their position, these are people with the capacity to read, and think for themselves. There are news articles: across the political spectrum in all major news sites, that report how the platform/ company they serve negatively affects society. Facebook’s Cambridge Analytica fiasco, Snowden’s expose, etc are credible and well documented examples that even non-tech people are aware. Yet they choose to ignore all this, and continue working / seek to join these companies.
- Cowardice: It is often wrapped in the garb of “self-interest”, but they do not raise their voice when they know that the software and platform they’re told to develop is going to be used to spy on their brethren. They claim they’re trying to make a living, but can use their skills to develop counter products to these horrible companies, or work for those that are sensitive and conscientious towards customer’s needs and welfare.
For a large chunk of my career, I worked in aerospace and ‘defense’ machining. Made all kinds parts for all kinds of weapons, it was really cool! Murica! As I got older, I lost my religion, I lost the far right brainwashing I was raised with.
My hands were making weapons that the US government was often selling to other countries. My hands were making weapons to kill various groups of brown people all over the world. It really began to bother me.
I no longer make things to kill people.
Yes, you are culpable for the effects of what you produce in your profession. A thinking person should consider the effects of their work.
I’ve been an engineer for about two decades now and pretty much everyone I’ve ever worked with has expressed that they would never work for Facebook, betting companies or defense companies.
Amazon is probably next on the shit list and then Google, but each to a much lesser extent than the ones before. Working for Google still holds a level of prestige for some people.
Loads of people working for these companies are also on special visas that have been described as modern slavery… so maybe they are culpable of signing up for such jobs/visas, but once you are in such a setup the threat of immediate deportation to some 3rd world country is quite real.
I work at Microsoft and it’s well known that you get paid way more at Facebook and Amazon. We like to call it a “sin tax”. Their employee retention is basically how long you need to stay to get your whole signing bonus.
Microsoft is far from perfect but I thoroughly enjoy working there in gaming.
How hard is it to get into Microsoft?
The privacy nutter part of my brain hates them about as much as the other (insert acronym here) companies. The “I have a family” part wants me to get paid enough to secure our future, so I’m looking into getting a US tech job in the next ~5-10 years (I’m aware that it’s a PAIN of a process if I need sponsorship, but luckily Microsoft has EU offices too)
Not anymore!
Sports betting is an interesting one. It’s a growing industry in the US. While things like Amazon are sort of nebulously evil, I think more people can agree betting is dangerous. I was unemployed from about July 2023 to Feb 2024. I turned down a sports betting job early on because I didn’t wanna do it for moral reasons but months later I pursued a different one because I was more desperate for a job. Luckily they turned me down and I found a different job. That sucks, but at least I don’t have to feel like I’m doing something wrong.
This reminds me of something I worked on at my last job. I made software to detect plumes of dust pollution from a mining site blowing onto a nearby school and town. The EPA issued fines if they detected too much dust over the town. This system could catch it early for quick intervention.
After it was deployed, I got a glimpse of their production config. They hadn’t configured the alarms for early intervention. They had configured them so that they could get as close as possible to their allocated limit before they intervened at all. Because, ya know, spraying water on stockpiles of ore is expensive.
Fucking mining companies, man.
I think you should’ve reported them and probably even destroyed the software so the whole thing shut down.
Report them for what. Fact is the EPA set a limit and they set their software to get as close to it as they could without going over. This is how markets work. This is how corporations work. This is why self regulation is a joke.
It’s just how limits work.
The issue isn’t with the software.
Imagine if I had photo radar sending tickets for people who were “almost” speeding.
The software config isn’t about “the markets” or “corporations”.
yeah that was my point. the regulators. whether self or an agency. will set where this goes.
Idk, I feel like the sort of technology you helped make can be used to help mining companies not accidentally (being generous) go over the limit because they can better monitor it, right? So on those grounds the limit could now be lower.
Like if my house randomly leaked water and I had no way of reasonably detecting it then the limit would probably need to be higher but once I had a way to spot and fix the problem I shouldn’t be able to get away with the same limit.
But at the same time I doubt the EPA is unaware of monitoring methods.
Report them for breaking the environmental laws? I thought what they did directly violated them.
no. he was saying they would detect it and only take action at the last moment to avoid hitting the limit. Like they could have set it up to reduce it any time it was unusually high to head it off before it even got close. Obiously you don’t want to be constantly spraying it but you could do it when it was like one or two standard deviations above norm.
Then why did they need the software in the first place? Just for marketing or showing fake “environmental progress”?
they needed the software to be in compliance at the very slimest margin the software and sensors would allow for. The goal was to pollute as much as they are allowed to and not a drop less.
I get it but why did they want it to have the early alerts and stuff? But I guess it makes some sense to detect emergencies and analyse the situation better.
Not if they stayed under the limits.
Cuz you asked me to talk you down here:
If you expand upon the ‘trite’ phrase “theres no ethical consumption under capitalism” (which itself is talking about how capitalism as a system can not be ethical since any product you buy is owned by a company who “steals” most of the value the workers provide), there is also no ethical work.
in other countries and historically in the us, unions sought not only fair wages and compensation but also representation at the Csuite. The ability to affect the policy of the company.
But that’s long gone. How does one who hopes to work for a “ethical” company go about it? What is they are alright but one of their vendors is shitty? A company they choose to contact with? What if they merge with a shitty one 5 years after you start?
I’m saying, if you want to be talked down, How is what you’re asking of people even possible? I can’t even keep track of who owns the food i buy anymore! Speaking of, these ethical workers are gone burn out studying unethical companies to work at, be sheltered by and buy food from. that reminds me that yeah, there’s the whole thing about people needing to work to eat.
Don’t blame the little guy, they been using that trick to split us a loooong time. Blame them, those who have the power.
There’s no ethical consumption under capitalism. And yet, we’re still forced into capitalism, with little choice but to participate or starve. You can object to a system and say that it’s unethical, but also necessarily play into that system.
We all gotta eat. Long as there’s our current form of capitalism, we all gotta pay rent (or mortgage). Until those needs relax, we’re essentially saying “pick between your needs and being a good person.” One of our strongest drives is to survive, and so if the only way for some to survive is off the backs of others, it’s the inevitable outcome.
Of course we should all be striving to change this. Effective change comes from slow, repeated effort though, not just fruitlessly chasing an ethical job. If you just stay where you are, then that’s fine. Do what you can from within, safely. We all do that, and we’ll slowly steer this ship.
Europe does have some Union representation in the corporate org structure, fwiw. How much that helps… well… i’m not sure, i haven’t seen it up close.
This is an extremist take on a correct conclusion. Just like how “vote with your wallet” and “no ethical consumption under capitalism” can co-exist, so can the idea that there are people in these jobs who simply don’t care about the harm as well as people who do but don’t have the power to do anything about it - even something as simple as changing jobs.
An easy example is the people left at Twitter. When employees started quitting in droves after Musk started tearing the company apart, I saw people quickly theorizing that the people still working there fell into 2 groups: those who were morally bankrupt enough not to care, and those on work visas who couldn’t quit because they risked being deported.
The majority of these companies are based in the US, where workers’ rights and protections are often tenuous at best. Whistleblowers have almost no protections and, more often than not, end up serving years or even lifetime sentences in federal jails for their efforts. In most states, it is completely legal for companies to fire you for whatever reason they feel like, and even if you get severance, it can take years of legal battles to get what you’re owed. Add to that how long it can take to find a new job (the average time in the video game industry is 2 months), and it’s easy to see how that can quickly spiral into putting people into a dangerous financial situation for daring to speak out.
It’s easy to lay the blame at other people’s feet, but just like saying, “Well, just don’t use their products then,” it’s never that simple.
I generally agree. If you work for an Evil Corp, you are just as culpable.
I actually generally hear this phrase IRL from teenagers making minimum wage while trying to get some boomer to stop badgering them to accept an expired coupon.
If you are aware of criminal or unethical actions by your employer… By staying and contributing… You are as guilty as those doing those actions.
If your ethics can be altered for money or power or success
They weren’t really your ethics. Their Just lies you tell yourself
Being poor never helps. Quiet quit / be overemployed
problem here is you want to keep learning and growing which has the unfortunate consequence of improving the software.
Improve yours, not theirs.
Well I threw all my criticality out the window I guess because I totally agree with you.
Do you blame the railway workers for putting down the rails that allowed nazi germany to move people into concentration camps highly efficiently?
The rails that exclusively went to the camps? Yeah.
but only if they carried the jews into the camps since other people did not suffer during WW2
?
No. But if u r a rail worker in Germany, Hitler is clearly talking about murdering minorities and u r aware of this information and yet u stay, then yes. U r complicit in the crimes of Hitler.
If you’re not part of the solution, you’re part of the problem. Employees make a choice to work there and therefore choose to be part of that problem.
I generally agree but not everyone can choose where they work. For many people, the choice is starving on the street or work for Evil Corp.
Most, if not all, of those hired as a software developers at any of these companies has loads of other jobs they could take. The only thing setting them apart is the size of the paycheck.
For less in-demand skills I get your point though.
There are some major exceptions to that. Many people on work visas have almost no choice, like the theorized majority of people who stayed on at Twitter after Musk ruined the place. Their choice basically boils down to keep working for the company or be deported.
Don’t forget the best place to whistleblow and/or change the system is from within. Privacy minded people can better influence what policies and practices happen at a company when they work there.
cringecollective.io eh? I haven’t noticed that comm before
No one who qualifies to work for Evil Corp is going to fucking starve on the street if they decide to look for work elsewhere instead.
Exactly, if you choose to work for a company then that is in support and furtherance of that companies goals / operations.
We are not so helpless as we sometimes like to claim.
I once worked for a big finical company. Things were great I made lots of money they matched my 401k. Then COVID happened. After watching this big financial company continue to charge interest when, I my manager and his boss knew people couldn’t afford to even make payments on their existing debt. Debt they had when the word COVID didn’t even exist and when they had a job it effected me and my sobriety. People saying, “We’re all in this together” brought me to an indescribable rage. I still know people that work there but I don’t think I could call them friends. They’re still complicit in keeping the poor, poor and making the executives richer. I just checked they’re on $177 billion in assets and meanwhile charging interest during a pandemic.
If you work for an information broker as a free service you’re just as complicit in this fucked up system of self interest over collective success. Good post op.
You’re not wrong. The whole system is governed by fear. It is the operating principle by which this world operates.
Anyone that says “I’m just doing my job” living their life based on fear, and not reason. All it does is give the psychopaths running everything more power.
We need to stop being afraid. Believe it or not, it is a choice. You can wake up every morning happy, and at total peace. No matter what is happening in your life. Mind over matter, as they say.
I’m more concerned about the sociopaths that try to run everything: the ones who have no qualms running through anybody who tries to get in their way.
It’s not new, but yeah.
