Maybe because it’s the only way many without generational wealth can afford to live.
people used to look at children as a way to pass on knowledge, culture, adn ofc, genes
nowadays our genes dont matter so much unless youre a super athlete or mega genius, so passing them on seems frivolous to many. then theres the interent, which houses knowledge on damn near everything. so i guess it makes sense why the desire to carry on would be outweighed at this point
Passing on genes sounds like some Nazi shit.
Jessie what the fuck are you talking about
Like the nazis, they want to like breed a special white person or some shit.
Username checks out.
I was gonna say. the phrase “double income no kids” arose in the 90s when “single income + kids” was a possibility.
Honestly at this point there are only a handful of headlines that cover about 90% of news stories:
-Young people ‘choose’ lifestyle choice that was forced upon them by external conditions.
-Young people are ‘killing industry’ that they are not paid enough to even dream of participating in.
-Rich person/people found guilty of or admitted to enormous crime will go unpunished.
-Someones totally unqualified opinion on a subject that we’re reporting as news because they’re rich.
-World ending, shareholders rejoice.Rich people doing stupid things with money because they aren’t being taxed like they should so that the economy actually can survive.
FDR taxes the shit out of rich people so they had to re-invest the money into their companies or lose it to the government. That built a strong, industrialized America with good paying jobs. Ronald Reagan reversed everything and we’ve been in decline ever since. Still a huge number of poor people continue to vote Republican, against their country, and their own interests.
this might be the greatest comment on Lemmy
Seriously, someone save this and post it on X and Reddit.
Disaster capitalism!!! 🥳
By choosing, I think we mean that it’s not an affordable luxury to do otherwise
oh trust me, the right wing would LOVE to take your ability to choose to procreate out of your hands completely. Abortion for sure, but also the the night after pill and even birth control. https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2023/04/birth-control-is-next-republicans-abortion.html
I really wish that this was just a joke. Those fascists will take anything they can to make themselves feel powerful.
“Why aren’t the poors having more workers??” - the same people continually reducing the status and security of the working class
deleted by creator
If given the option or the opportunity … the wealthy wouldn’t mind the reintroduction of slavery and outright ownership of people
Choosing or forced to choose?
Neither, really. More like are choosing not to go into child debt. Having a kid costs more than having a house. Good for this generation for taking control of their reproductive decisions.
But what you’re describing is an economic decision.
Choosing. I hate kids.
Was just going to say that.
Of all my younger siblings/cousins/etc, the only ones with kids were accidents. Only I chose to purposely start a family, and that took me a decade of saving.
Choosing. Def had the option to have kids but decided not to.
Most humans choose to breathe for oxygen, study shows.
Unlike these “reporters”, you know the answer.
“choosing”
- low wages
- no unions
- housing is either a lifetime’s savings for down payment on mortgage or a never ending escalator of rent fees
- states taking reproductive rights away
- states threatening contraception
- climate change dooming the future
- war - war in ukraine, war in palestine, war in africa, civil war being threatened by the chud down the street
Gee Mr Wizard, why don’t millennials want babies instead of avocado toast?
Pretty much
they arent choosing it.
They are being forced into it because its the only fucking way to have a chance at NOT being homeless and crippled.
Oh no, make no mistake, I chose it.
However, even if I wanted them, how the fuck does one even afford them?
Don’t get it twisted, many of us absolutely chose to not have kids because we don’t want them.
You can both be right, you know. Many of us also agree with what this person was saying.
I used to want kids. I will refuse to have kids unless I can afford them, and until I can GUARANTEE that their human rights won’t be stripped away by the whims of stupid people who are completely disconnected from reality. I won’t bring a new life into a world that’s rushing towards climate oblivion, either.
I’ll sterilize myself before I’m ever forced to have kids.
OP: everyone in group x does y
Me: not everyone
You: you’re both right - not everyone
?
And there is part of the problem in the eyes of those with power… That thought that you have a choice in sterility. A choice to not have kids didn’t used to exist and you attempting to keep warm and have some pleasure basically guaranteed that you would have more eventually. So that must be stripped in order for you to continue the cycle of having kids not by choice and add to the population that gets fucked over.
Agreed. These people are trying to leverage something many of us absolutely aren’t interested in to push for necessities such as fixing inflation, universal Healthcare etc. Except that if those things were fixed it wouldn’t change the birth rate much at all. That’s why Republicans are forcing people to be breeding machines. Educated well off people know better to engage in an activity that is detrimental to their physical and mental health. And making a human means you’re responsible for them until you or they die. That’s the biggest mistake people make. They make a human, then wash their hands of then.
No one should have a child unless they are willing to commit themselves to that child 100%. I have a daughter. She’s the most wonderful thing that ever happened to me. And if anyone willingly took substantially less effort than I’ve taken to try to raise her in a safe, healthy environment and prepare her for her future as best I can- fuck you, you should have worn a fucking condom.
No child deserves to be neglected.
Interesting/sad how simply due to circumstance, somebody’s absolute honest best at max effort/sacrifice can still be raising a kid in a favela.
Consider the top vs. bottom billion: I expect the latter half’s kids would appear neglected if they were suddenly transported to the former’s McMansions overnight.
That’s not to say the kisses and the love are any less, but the clothes and the education and the soccer practice? I’d bet certainly.
I hope within by two generations from now this kind of pondering is only possible from a historical perspective. The kids deserve it.
Hence my saying ‘willingly.’ You can’t help being impoverished.
I also have kids and love them dearly. However I think that it is important that parents have their own interests and time for their own lives, independent of their roles as parents. Of course with very young children there’s barely time to sleep, but humans grow up quickly! 😄
I’m not suggesting otherwise. You can put the effort in to do all that I said and still have time to do your own thing.
This is not a controversial opinion.
Less of a choice and more of a survival tactic. Plus, my foregone children would thank me.
Those with higher income levels are the ones deciding to have less kids, whereas those with the lowest incomes are the ones having more. Source
If people are being forced into not having children for economic reasons, wouldn’t it be the opposite?
But I don’t disagree about it being in the best interest of my future children not to exist with the way things are heading lol.
Didn’t a 2006 documentary explore something like this?
Yes I remember it also had some surprising findings about electrolytes
Camacho was smarter than some candidates today as they are willing to let the SMEs handle shit
If having kids causes you to be poorer what would the results look like?
The reality is that the more kids you have the worse you are at capitalism: You can’t work as much, you can’t take on more demanding jobs and you’ll make life choices that are less lucrative to care for the kids.
Can only speak for myself, but thankfully I have no interest in more demanding, lucrative jobs to improve my stats in such a rigged and inherently evil game as modern capitalism.
Doing just well enough with a loving family sounds well-lived to me. They can keep their McMansions and rooftop wine tastings.
Yeah but you also don’t get trashed at the bars every weekend and you live longer healthier life. It isn’t as clear cut as you are making it. I agree being a dad has hurt parts of my career but it has probably helped other parts.
The source you linked tells that more developed countries have less kids, which is almost unrelated to how “affordable” having a child is, which infact have the opposite trend.
Here is a source for within the USA.
The more money one makes, the more free they are to make the choice not to have children.
Thanks much better, however “Correlation does not imply causation” which is obvious in this case (and as the source itself say, the correlation is probably about education instead etc). The problem is much more complex and trying to explain it with a simple correlation is a bit naive, however you can’t deny how much of an economic struggle raising a kid is for the average income family…
I never claimed having kids wasn’t a financial endeavor. I’m just pointing out that people with more income have on average less kids… because they do. I didn’t suppose the cause of this correlation at any point. But yes, I’d agree education is a huge part of the cause of this correlation.
Could it be its more lucrative to not have children?
When contraception is expensive, career paths look bleak (or non-existent) and sex is the one fun activity you have… surprisedpikachu.jpg
My wife finally are in a point where we can afford to have children, but we are kinda getting a bit old to have children. So we are also choosing the dual income no children life style,
But a big part of that is our age and how long it took to get to a comfortable place financially.
Now we want to focus on saving for a house and retirement.
How old are you if you don’t mind me asking?
Mid 30s
That’s not old, my man. Many of us are having kids in our 40s.
I’m one right here. Tired? Sure, but they fill our lives. This was 100% the right decision for us, but everyone has their own set of goals
perfectly ok in that range, it starts to get unsafe for the mother after 40 tho
I don’t know about this commenter, but don’t forget that everyone is different.
Hypothetically, you might be good having kids in you thirties, but one or both of them might have a condition or disability that gets worse with time.
I know people in their early 20s with bad arthritis, and a lot of people want to be able to chase after and run around with their kids. Sometimes chronic pain/illness can remove that option.
Oh for sure, I dont think everyone should or can be parents. Im just saying its not necessarily a death knell for parenthood in that age range
dinks
I don’t know what this means.
It’s the acronym for the phrase in the article - “Dual Income No Kids”. Might have been more obvious if it were in caps.
Thanks!!
Removed by mod
deleted by creator
I think adoption is also pretty pricey but I’m not sure where you’re from.
I make ~$200K a year. As a father of 5, I wish I had not had a single one. I love them, but the stress of taking care of them coupled with the future of the planet makes me regret life choices.
I find it interesting that you cite the stress of raising them as a factor in your regret. Could you not tell that was going to be an issue around the time number three came around? That’s not intended to be accusatory btw. I’m genuinely curious.
You incorrectly assume I’m intelligent.
Haha fair enough
Ok not a Java dev but this would explain the excess children (lol)
deleted by creator
Maybe they meant it like “there is now stress for helping pay for college at a higher cost than when they were born.” Or being stressed knowing if the family lives in a HCOL area (typically where those salaries are offered), they might not be able to live there as well with the current trends in housing costs.
TLDR: things have changed for the worst for newer generations, parents can see it.
God, I wish I was smart enough to lie this well. No. I like sex, and hate condoms. I’m the dum.
I do too, which is why I was on the table getting a vasectomy before the vernix was dry on our one and only kid lol
deleted by creator
Kids are inherently stressful. They’re like little abusive people who you can’t legally defend yourself against.
He probably doesn’t know what contraception is.
He’s a Java developer
Made a ChildFactory, may as well use it.
I’m sorry man, I assume you have a bit of family support in this regard?
What choice do they have if kids are basically unaffordable?
Because we can’t afford our own lives, how are we supposed to support children? Not even taking into account for how absolutely fucked we all are. Our planet is dying, how can we bring children into this world if it’s all falling apart?
Hey you, I have a quick question about the username
Uh oh, this is awkward…
What are your thoughts on misandry?
I mean a lot of us wouldn’t even if it they paid us. We finally live in a time where we know better and can choose not to be barefoot and pregnant (unless you live in tx).
But you can’t forget that your children can save the planet, if your generation won’t.
My parents set the house on fire, I’m looking for a fire extinguisher, and some newsie wants me to know that if I just had kids they could grow up to be firemen.
I don’t think that’s what is being said at all. I think what’s being said is that if the future belongs to the next generation, it’s in all of our interests that intelligent and responsible people do not simply give up and allow the idiots to dominate the future. In other words, we all have a stake in the coming generations and simply opting out because we find it somehow inconvenient is not a moral decision.
This is not to say that we all need to have kids, but rather, is to say that we shouldn’t necessarily fault those who do choose to have them. Again, if the children are our future, it would be nice if at least some of them were raised by responsible, intelligent and well-educated parents.
intelligent and responsible people do not simply give up and allow the idiots to dominate the future
That would ring truer if not spoken by an idiot who dominates the present. CNBC is replete with these know-nothing goobers, and even assuming I bought in to their selective breeding strategy for repopulation after the apocolypse, I sure as hell wouldn’t endorse their target audience to handle the job.
This is not to say that we all need to have kids, but rather, is to say that we shouldn’t necessarily fault those who do choose to have them
That’s fair on its face, but more as a practical consequence. At some point you have to ask, what would we even do about people having more kids than we’d like. And the answers - from trying to shame them by screaming at them to doing old school Nixon-era sterilizations of whole populations - are incredibly grim and gross.
it would be nice if at least some of them were raised by responsible, intelligent and well-educated parents
If you want responsible, intelligent, and well-educated parents tomorrow, you’re going to need to house and feed and educate and generally provide quality of life for kids today.
But we hate kids today. That’s why, despite the economy growing at a steady clip for the last 20 years, we’re at record high child poverty with 1 in 5 kids living in poverty in the 40 richest countries. The current generation does not want to pay money to see them grow up health, strong, and capable.
Given the poor treatment they’ve received, why would Zoomers be expected to have lots of kids of their own? They have known nothing but declining standards of living, with a promise of worse to come.
What an asshole thing to do. Hey we had fun using up this planet now here, we made you to clean up up the mess. That’s what AI and robots are for. Not humans.
Man, fuck them negative votes. Humans do best understand pressure. We need humans to solve this crisis because, humans manufactured it. We make more humans and roll the dice.
Humans do best understand pressure.
Pure selection bias. You primarily hear about the humans who did well under pressure, because the humans that didn’t do well rarely make for popular reading material.
We make more humans and roll the dice.
I would argue that by the time a child born today is old enough to participate in the solution, the dice will have already landed. Either they’ll be living in a city/country/planet whose prior generation has positioned themselves to preserver, or they’ll be dying in one whose prior generation didn’t.
Having more kids won’t solve the problem. We’ve got 8B people already. One more or less won’t tip the scales.
Not having more kids won’t solve the problem, either. So no point in getting mad at folks who did choose to have children.
When the problem is too much of something, the solution is less of it. Make of that what you will.
I like to think the solution is much more complex but, I guess you can’t get snakes from chicken eggs.
Time to break the cycle of abuse.
It’s time to put funding into solutions. Making less people isn’t the solution. Managing our resources responsibility is the better solution.
Don’t stop making people, start making better quality people.
Gee, it’s almost like it’s important for the long term success of society to have systems in place that make sure it’s not a burden to create new people to take over for your generation after their bodies are too old and broken to keep working and society functioning.
Then again, the decisions have already been made by the people with the power to make them, and technology/automation are in line to replace workers. They’ll be a little loud and problematic until the numbers naturally even themselves out, but we’ll be left with an enlightened society of capitalist asset owners being supported by a massive technological network.
It would be a shame if a new Luddite movement came and broke the machines putting humans out of work they want to do.
Or give us a universal basic income and let humans do what they want to do to make themselves happy while the machines do all the work.
Makes a fascinating short story:
Jimmy thought his job at the data center was easy, clock in, watch the cameras, do the rounds, clock out. Good pay, low effort…
then 10,000 people showed up with hammers and crow bars. Jimmy was about to have a very bad day.
I so much hope it’s going to be rhe second. I doubt it will 😢
What value is a universal basic income to the shareholders? That is the question to ask in this capitalist hellscape.
I’d say that sometimes it may even be beneficial to shareholders because they will not have to deal with people in the company that are there only to up the workspace numbers. You know, those job positions that only exist because of how wrecked the system is now
Maybe one day many, many years from now when there are far fewer humans and machines have taken over nearly all production. UBI isn’t feasible on this side of the coming demographic boogaloo.
deleted by creator
Put the value back into my income then, ye cunts.
I make the same number as my dad used to. His was a different currency but the number was the same which makes it awfully simple to put everything into perspective.
His house: 350 Mine: a little under half the size: 900
I’m already down 550 in comparison.
His insurance: 90 Mine: 160
I’m down 620.
His medicine cost and doctor visits: basically zero. Mine: 385 and half the medicine comes out of pocket nowadays.
This difference is hard to put into perspectice as the 385 is once a year and medicine depends on the situation.
Him: unemployed wife, groceries cost about 200 for a full month, owns a car and has 4 children.
Me: wife works and has a hobby that makes money, no car because no money left. Groceries: we eat about 2/3rd of what they did and pay 200 a week. No children.
We are down 1220 if we forget about insurance and medicine. I don’t make 1220 more than he did.
Fuck this hellhole, you stole our life and i hope there is a hell for you scumbags.
you stole our life
Don’t blame your dad - however much you resent him it’s not like he has any influence over the economy. Instead blame the super rich who have real influence and are actively pushing policy to widen this social divide.
I doubt he does.
But it is partially their fault: they have the largest political clout by generation so welfare and zoning policies have always suited them at the behest of everyone else.
And even if people don’t have kids, the rich aren’t going to be impacted. They just use immigration as a stop gap until everything is automated away and we see wealth imbalance get taken to 11. I’m talking gated communities everywhere with poverty in-between (e.g South Africa)
You’re choosing to be wilfully ignorant about inflation. You don’t make as much as he did in a real sense.
What’s going on now isn’t inflation. It’s greed.
If only income inflated to match the expenses.
