Yeah no shit, and you do think I have a single goddamn bit of influence over my corporation’s choice of email client??
They can leech all the data they want from my employer. I don’t give a fuck. Never use company assets for personal business as an addendum.
Just be a little more careful with your own stuff, s’all.
Depends on your sector of work. Imagine you’re a therapist or a lawyer…
A lot of healthcare and education institutions use Outlook as well, so I wouldn’t be surprised if mental health or legal uses it too. There may be rules about what kind of client/student/patient information can be sent over email, and often there are healthcare/institution specific variants of the office suites which (are supposed to) meet regulatory requirements
I think the other comment applies regardless. Do work things on the work device/account and let the workplace handle any other concerns. When it comes time to discuss alternatives, you can make a case for something else
I mean it even harvests typing data and Outlook also includes calendars etc… It’s really bad.
But yes, I just suggested a re-evaluation of the use of Microsoft Outlook to my company …
What would you get them to use instead? I use Proton personally, but I doubt many companies are using it at scale.
Use geary as a client with a private company selfhosted mailserver.
There are dozens of articles about mental health systems selling patient data.
People are worried about these dystopian futures, completely unaware that we’re living in one today. You can’t do anything, go anywhere, or buy anything without it being logged and sold for profit. Not without spending years of your time becoming a cyber security expert.
All of it is compatible with HIPAA.
How?
There is more than one country on this planet.
Yes, and plenty of them use HIPPA or variants of it as a standard. There will certainly be a control mapping from any other law or standard used and 365 is going to be mostly compatible with them all.
Not trying to dismiss your view, but I am not aware of any country outside US using HIPPA as a standard. I’m also not an expert in this so probably mistaken. Which country are you thinking of?
Touché.
Why is your corp using the free mail app in windows??
Let me introduce you to https://davmail.sourceforge.net/
Yes it works pretty fine with stupid O365. You can basically use whatever mailclient you desire with it.
pretty sure when you bring that up to your company, that another company will have access to internal communication, that they will do something against it. It’s a willing data breach.
There’s no other company with all the required certification that can replace Microsoft office suite so all corporations are stuck with it and tbh nobody cares.
Perhaps nobody in the US or in jobs with non-sensitive data cares about that. In the EU this could backfire hard against Microsoft.
This aint 365. This is a standalone thing.
There are plenty of other services that have the compliance check boxes. Most of them are garbage, expensive, and don’t come with 5% of the other tools that MS does.
There is a choice, and companies choose ms because it is best.
well, as far as you use it just for your work, who cares, right? It’s the same as I’d never use Lastpass, my corp use it and even offered it for our personal use :D thanks, but no thanks! For personal use I would never use any microsoft solution.
No shit. There’s a reason they are killing the nice and simple Windows Mail app; it allows you to sync with your email without Microsoft servers between.
Also, the biggest issue for me is the UX. I use outlook for my work email and like to separate my work and personal life, so soon I just won’t have an app for my personal email on my PC.
If anyone knows of a similar windows mail app with good touch support and without such a traditional mouse designed UI, please share it.
The new thunderbird UI looked neat and modern.
They’re still working out some kinks, but yes, the new UI of Thunderbird 115+ is pretty good.
Thunderbird has a new UI?
I’m on 115 and i dont notice anything different from how its always been… (This isnt some joke, or insult, or anything. I genuinely don’t notice anything different?)
If you update from a previous version then it configures itself to be similar to the old UI. If you do a clean install it looks very different.
fresh install on a fresh OS install.
Weird
I’ve been using Thunderbird since forever. It’s not perfect but I like it better than bloated and laggy Outlook.
I’ve been paying for mailspring for a few years now, and I love it. It has touch and gesture support, is open source, and is available on Windows, MacOS, and Linux.
Its paid plan includes some nice features like email tracking - which you can’t really get from just a simple client and (needs a server to track who has opened an email and when) - and id lookup, for things like quickly seeing the LinkedIn profile of a sender not in your contacts list.
Definitely my favorite desktop client by a wide margin, and one I would recommend wholeheartedly.
Edit: Just to be clear, it’s available for free as well.
Thank you for actually reading my comment and suggesting something appropriate, though I’m not convinced by the UI images. I’ll have to test the touch support myself, but I’ll check it out.
Is it a local-only client, or does it download email on their cloud servers first?
Local only.
Even if you pay for their subscription, when you get to a new computer you need to manually authenticate with each service. But, it remembers which accounts you have, so it’s faster than manually setting up each account from scratch. Basically “we know you have Gmail, xmail, ymail - tap each account to reauthenticate”
It’s a good way to have (part of) the convenience of a cloud service, while combining it with the security of local only clients.
Edit: all of this is optional, you can choose not to let their cloud service know of any of your accounts.
What especially galled me was as I was updating my laptop before flashing to Linux the new outlook will not work unless edge installed, I had just uninstalled that pile of garbage.
Ah well, at least pop_os works great 😃
I really liked the mail app, the outlook one sucks
If you’re still using Windows 11, they’re still collecting your data. Sure, no need to give them more, but maybe that’s the push you need to move elsewhere. There are really good options.
What part of Windows (or Microsoft software in general) is not a data collection service?
If you aren’t using an insider edition then Notepad is still safe
Impressive
… for now. They’ve already replaced the old Notepad with a bloated UWP version, so it probably won’t be long before it starts sending telemetry as well.
bloated?
I think then new Notepad is just perfectly fine.
The tabs are nice, but I notice it takes 3x as long to open (TBF it’s still under a second) and take up 10x the memory (12MB vs 1.2MB), for basically doing the same thing as the old version.
Thankfully Kate is available for Windows https://kate-editor.org/post/2021/2021-05-09-kate-21.04-in-the-windows-store/
When I look at my Pi Hole dashboard while my girlfriend’s Mac is booted, I’m surprised by how many requests are blocked, given that apple somehow has the reputation of respecting their user’s privacy.
And when she boots into Windows 10 MS’s data stealing gets downright creepy.
I am lucky enough not to have a Windows 11 PC on my network but I think I would see even more denied requests.Pretty sure
rd /s /q C:\Windows\System32is still clean
Outlook honestly was not that bad for a while, but of course Microsoft does what Microsoft does. I’ve been using Thunderbird for about a year now and it is very full featured coming directly from outlook.
I use Outlook on my work Mac, and am forever amazed at how hard they pushed on getting me to switch to “New” Outlook, but how many features they never bothered to port over. Like, I can’t export my mailbox without having to switch it back to ‘old’ Outlook. Calendars straight up don’t work half the time and there’s no obvious button to switch from a list of events for the month, back to a monthly calendar view.
Outlook for Mac is a fucking mess. I really do need to switch over to Thunderbird.
Mail was so clean thunderbird isn’t as nice
What was the hardest thing about the transition?
Personally, i got pretty used to the focused view from Outlook. Other than missing that, it’s been pretty great.
Does thunderbird support exchange protocols or just IMAP
I use if for exchange and gmail - it’s pretty robust. Plus, they are approaching completion of their mobile app which has similar capabilities
Looks like it uses IMAP. Nothing wrong with that. It is just common practive when locking down Exchange Online to tick the box in Conditional Access that disables “legacy protocols”, which includes IMAP. I’ve been using eM Client which uses EWS but doesn’t support push-mail so still on the look-out for something else.
I mean… Yeah.
Thats what i thought but holy shit its so much worse.
Its not even data that is needed for outlook but like pretty much everything on your pc.
including your username and password, send in clear text
I agree with the article’s statement. How the fuck is this legal.
Wait what I just thought this was another round of whining and clutching pearls over microsoft stuff being spyware but thats actually fucked.
You thought until now people whine for no reason?
People whine about the same thing over and over and over, somehow acting shocked and outraged when microsoft does each month what its been doing for decades. Make their product somehow even more shitty and erode their customers experience so they can sell you the same product with a new paintjob. Big tech sucks, they want to squeeze you dry for every nickel you ever owned, and your private information too. Its sold to anyone who wants including your government and they don’t even bother storing it securely. You know this. I know this. Even the average non tech person knows this. We’ve all known it for a very long time now.
Don’t like it? Too bad, not changing any time soon. Kind of just have to accept microsoft cuckery if its for your work. For personal use though theres always the option to switch to linux, start using open source software, and get a new email through a public acess unix server like tilde.team
But no, theres always some excuse lazy and stubborn people unwilling to compromise have, to not do any of that either. Cause that one videogame you really like doesn’t work on linux cause shitty anticheat, or you think you need that one adobe product that does have open source alternatives but aren’t as good as a corporate product, or your online accounts are already tied to gmail/outlook and it would be too much work to switch it all over to a new email. And dual-booting just isn’t going to work for them either, for reasons. Good options exist, but most just don’t want to take them up because they can’t stand being inconvinenced or relearning their computer software.
So I have no more sympathy for people who willingly use windows or outlook or youtube or any corporate product and then wonder why that product continues to get worse while they charge you more money for it + a subscription now.
Sorry for the 5 paragraph essay, I guess im just tired of seeing the /technology outrage circlejerk about this weeks episode of ‘corporate products are shit and getting shittier by the day’
I am aware this comes from a competitor and they want to go all out. However, what is unclear to me, does this also happen to paying users?
For my small business I use Office 365 Business Essentials, whatever it’s called now, the cheapest one. Been using it for many years and for the price/features, it’s pretty unbeatable. I use the new Outlook on my workstation since a few months, it’s pretty slow and not feature complete but was ok. I’m in the EU and haven’t been prompted with that window where it talks about advertisers. Will check Monday if I see a list of advertisers but I think for paid users it’s not the same.
For personal mail, I use Thunderbird, I even donated to them. I like it but would have been great if it had a view like Outlook. At the moment it has table view and cards view. Wish the cards view would more customizable.
Proton has a business plan, too.
I know but I don’t see any benefits to switching. It’s a little more money for fewer features and it’s still a somewhat new product.
I’ve read some reviews and a lot of people complained about their mails not being sent/received. Might be a limited thing but my email is working so I don’t feel brave enough to start messing around with it and clients not getting my emails.
It’s basically gmail. It’s a web/email server that you give your creds over to . It has an offline mode that I guess makes it an app.
Yeah they read your shit.
For consumers, yeah they scan your shit to sell advertisements to you. For Business customers —that could get real illegal real quick.
MS has much better privacy for licensed customers. It’s well documented and in their MSA.
As if the old outlook app wasn’t as …. Oh Shit! This is more egregious
Hey Proton how about you quit privacy-washing and actually prioritize and release feature parity products for Linux so your customers aren’t being herded onto windows’ data harvesting platform just so they can use your supposedly privacy forward products
I don’t use proton so forgive me if this is a stupid question…
But do you need an app? Can’t you just use whatever browser you want for their services?
Also, there’s Thunderbird if you NEED a fat client for your email. Except Proton’s strength is where the service is located and the security of access. Having a full copy locally on your system kind of defeats that.
If you have properly implemented LUKS I don’t see any reason that should be a concern.
Unless you also employ very strict sandboxing, a rogue app or script could read those emails from your running system while LUKS is unlocked. There are plenty of CVEs relating to code execution; an infected JPEG, browser exploit, or any number of other things could expose your Thunderbird email database or the running memory to an attacker, particularly if you use “secure” services like Proton because you’re the kind of person who would be targeted by state actors.
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You need a special app that they call a “bridge” because Proton doesn’t support normal IMAP and SMTP, so you have to use the bridge to be able to use normal email clients.
But they are now porting their webmail as a cross-platform desktop Electron app, after which they’ll just likely discontinue the bridge “for safety”. And so this issue will become moot.
I’m grateful you put “for safety” in quotes there. That’s definitely bullshit talk. I’m further grateful that I just self-host my email. I can skip the bullshit of companies making random decisions that are ultimately against my wishes.
The Linux Experiment recently interviewed the CEO who answered this question.
Basically it’s the same as anything else. Linux requires more effort to code for due to its variety of distributions, and has a significantly smaller userbase.
In short, don’t blame Proton, blame the (lack of) users.
That’s a bullshit excuse. Looks at Arch’s AUR. Look at Gentoo’s guru. What happens for proprietary stuff is a deb or rpm package is downloaded, extracted and files copies where they should be. That’s it. And it works, because the cornerstone of the system is libc and the kernel. And these, for the overwhelming majority of applications, behave exactly the same on all distros.
I mean, can’t you just package your app in flatpack or even snap? Bam, your app works on 99% of distributions for little effort. That’s what Spotify does, and I’d argue they have even less incentive to support Linux than proton does
Spoken like someone who has never developed a app package
I don’t know, I’m not a developer. Lots of companies don’t make their products available on Linux, most cite similar reasoning, so it’s unsurprising. But I agree it’s disappointing. I really wish Linux was more user-friendly.
He also answered this claim, it is right for apps that aren’t stuff like Proton VPN that can’t work in a sandboxed environment. They are working on it iirc
Screw VPNs, give us everything else!
Sure, as long as you don’t need any integration with other software, don’t need arbitrary IPC, and actually keep some dependencies in line with some common denominator because there’s only so much you can do with static linking (oh excuse me, distributing the shared libraries in the same package as your binaries as if it’s a new thing) once it reach the “program must actually run” part.
Flatpack and every other similar solution that are described as “works everywhere” always come with a heck of limitations.
I finally said screw it and am leaving Proton for a proper paid service. I never upgraded Proton to a paid tier because it never matured enough for me to use for real. I never once migrated contacts over to it (just a couple people who understood I was testing it).
Yea, so there’s a connection to my credit card. At least it’s with a professional org that has proper modern mail management (something post-2000), and gives you tools to manage your email.
I really wanted Proton to work out so I could recommend it to friends and family. But it’s a terrible user experience. I missed 50 emails because it keeps moving them to spam even after I set the sender as not spam. Oh, and spam management requires (according to support) logging into the web, not thru the mobile client. 🤦♂️
Can you imagine telling a customer this with a straight face and not seeing a problem with it? I’m using your app and can’t manage spam?
I mean, this is the mail service whose own docs candidly state that their mobile app “sometimes doesn’t work”. 'Nuff said.
That sucks! I have never experienced any of these issues
Don’t worry, they’re preparing to discontinue all their desktop-native apps in favor of webmail (and webmail running in Electron).
After which I expect they’ll start squeezing their paying customers, since they won’t be able to leave anymore. Or sell the company, get out with “clean hands” and a wad of cash, and let someone else do the squeezing.
For a few years, I had hope that Microsoft would become a respectable, user-oriented, even FOSS-friendly company, but they finally seem to have settled on AI enshitification as their main business model.
FOSS friendly company
I’m not sure what you are smoking but you’re high as balls dude. If there is any company that has as it’s motto “fuck and destroy open source” and as slogan “fuck everything for money”, then it’s Microsoft.
Microsoft paid SCO to make false claims against Linux in an attempt to destroy Linux and extort large companies away from Linux. The destroy part failed, but they got multiple large companies to steer away from Linux. Normal people would go to jail for that, Microsoft execs not so much.
Change to Linux on main PC when?
When gaming is 100% the same on Linux you’ll see more people pick it up.
It’s already happened — 90% of games will work flawlessly now on both Windows and Linux. It’s just that the remaining 10% are different on each platform, for various reasons. Pick your poison. Usually it’s those 10% that will dictate the decision for you — but the OS itself has stopped making a difference for gaming years ago.
I got a popup saying “wanna try the new Outlook app”? So I did and the fucking thing immediately inserted ads that resembled email into my inbox. If this is the future I’ll install Thunderbird.
Thunderbird is great!
This is why I don’t get excited when I hear some software that I already use and works fine gets an update. More often than not the update makes the software worse.
It used to not be the case, but as of the past decade or so, it seems like more and more software is getting lower quality or substantially bug ridden. Not just on windows either. It’s everything now.
Back in the day, each update used to fix bugs, add genuinely useful features, and were eagerly anticipated. Now, I get to do lovely things like RMA a bricked steam deck on stable channel or listen to New Teams’ ringer doubling, once before a call is picked up, and ringing again after the phone is answered. I wish I was joking for either of these.
Yeah, that update was the final push that moved me to Linux on my primary computer. I’ve used Linux for about 20 years on everything that wasn’t my gaming PC and between the advancements made by Valve and the increasing invasive nature of Windows put an end to my relationship with Microsoft.
Uninstall that shit.
Edit: if you HAVE to use Outlook (because of work, etc), use the web version of it exclusively.
I give the web version credit, it’s pretty swell.
What’s the privacy conscious, and future-proof way to have email, that isn’t as crazy expensive as Proton?
That’s nothing we didn’t already know.
