Wealth inequality is the cause of almost every single economic and social issue in existence.
If young men had the money to have agency in their lives they would be living life instead of living with their parents to save money while seeking validation through internet fascists.
If school wasn’t desigend to be a day care service for Capitalists our children would be properly socialized with the different sexes/genders before getting the chance to grow up into incels.
I call it economic infantilization.
Back in 1960 US minimum wage was $1.00/hour and the average US home was $11,000.00 A brand new car was around $2,500.00 A teenager could move out of the house and be self supporting and grade school kid could work hard and pay for a car on their 18th birthday.
It’s hard to feel like an independent adult when you can’t afford anything.
I cry bullshit. Incels aren’t that way because of money. Generation X ate out of dumpsters and did what they could to survive. Not saying younger generations have it easy, but you can be broke and not be a misogynist. From what I understand, sex offenders created the incel movement to normalize their bullshit. Trump and all of those rapists want a world where they can be evil with no consequences. They are working hard towards that end. They need an army of like minded degenerate perverts to achieve this. The algorithms promote this sort of insecure male content on YouTube and other media. Most of those influenders make money trafficking women for sex. This is a new thing. 30 years ago, people were moving away from sexism, and racism. Now, everyone is a protégé of the sociopath billionaires and misogynist tech bro oligarchs. People need to realize this isn’t a natural movement, it’s a synthetic one. Fuck incels! Not literally, of course.
30 years ago, people were moving away from sexism, and racism.
what ? my liberal friend, you’ve been in an echo chamber since birth. welcome to the real world. sun down towns never stopped existing. the glass ceiling never shattered. dropping racist slurs in the company of white friends never went out of fashion.
you are just too poor to know anyone who isn’t performatively liberal
Back 30 years ago, there were spheres outside the old boys club and celebrity racket. Naturally, much was done to destroy that. If people had the option to interact with people who aren’t psychpaths, racists and assholes, they choose that option.
the Nazis and other fascists used hyper masculinity to appeal to young men’s lack of agency in post WW1 Europe
It’s kind of a perfect storm.
Fifty years ago, Alvin Toffler wrote a book called ‘Future Shock.’ He knew that there would be people who couldn’t/wouldn’t adapt themselves to the coming change from the Industrial era to the Digital Age. We’ve got people using the most advanced tech to push the stupidest ideas.
Fuck incels! Not literally, of course.
Why not? It would cure them 😉
You’re right, therefore we should ban abortions and gay marriage. /s
Ah, that’s why there are no rich incels!
/s
Seems like a huge part of the problem is equating “self-worth” to “getting laid”.
Putting your dick in a woman doesn’t make you any more of a man / successful / worth more than anyone else.
Societal expectations need to be rejected. Oh, success is measured by your ability to get married, have a house, and raise your 2.5 children? For a vast majority, NONE OF THAT IS CURRENTLY SUSTAINABLE AND/OR OBTAINABLE. So why bother? Right?
I get it. It ain’t right, but I get it.
Putting your dick in a woman doesn’t make you any more of a man
Yeah, puting a man’s dick in you makes you more of a man.
thank you for your service
It’s simple math, really.
Yeah instant double the amount of man… wanna become a 3x man? Just lmk
Yeah i have sad it before. Many young men belive that to be a good person they must me the manlyest man to have manned in the history of manhood. Anything else and they a moral failure.
And you believe that men are fuck machines, fuck beasts, that to be a man is to fuck. Well thrn a man that is not having sex is failure of a man.
Changing their. Minda is not just a changing some view it is changing their whole world view. It is the sane as convincing the pope to convert to Buddhism. It is way more then facts or some conversations ot converting a whole generation.
It’s literally the most natural thing in the world to equate reproductive effectiveness to worth. All life is “worth” their reproductive effectiveness. So not having sex is very relevant to our entire existence as a species.
As such, our mental faculties put a heavy punishment in the form of mental pain, i.e. “self-worth attached to getting laid”, on this whole thing.
This has very little to do with societal expectations. It’s simple biology. Not getting laid is supposed to be one of the worst things for an organism.
You’re rationally right with what you say, but it’s simply not very relevant. Rationality does not help with our most deeply rooted biological desires. The only thing that helps is getting them fulfilled, i.e. having sex.
Everything you wrote is nonsense. Pointing at a process that often occurs - evolution - and then working backwards to claim that organisms must feel pain when they don’t reproduce is completely antilogical. Evolution may be caused by feelings of pain or suffering when otganisms don’t reproduce, or it could be something completely different. You are putting the effect before the cause.
Trying to do evolutionary psychoanalysis on something as cognitively complex as a human is practically guaranteed to give you wrong conclusions. What’s more, this sort of bullshit is part and parcel of a lot of bioessentialist rhetoric, so if I were you I would definitely consider revaluating a few things.
In this case the logic is sound. Evolution doesn’t often occur, it always occurs. And we’re not talking about secondary or tertiary reproductive fitness (ie: humans are efficient at running so they must run, men are physically strong so they must defend), we’re talking about actual reproductive encounters.
Its the entire goal of the of all life on earth. There’s a carrot for anything getting you closer to reproducing and sticks for anything that moves you the wrong direction. Despair and discomfort can be caused by plenty of things, but you don’t have to disentangle the entire human experience to draw the line from a lack of healthy sexual experience to an ideology based on extreme sexual frustration.
Edit: again, down votes with no counter argument. For some reason people agree that abstinence in sex ed is a bad policy but turn around and say sex isn’t part of normal human function. Which is it?
None of my argument is about regressive bioessentialism. There’s no inherent violent masculinity or genetic fitness or any stance about what relationships are “supposed” to look like. Men are just having less sex than women.
24% of men aged 22-34 did not had sex in 2022-2023 vs 13% of women. That’s a much larger cohort to propagate that frustration. You can argue that there are other social factors that make it manifest in this specific toxic ideology (as opposed depression, anxiety and body image issues) but the root cause is the same.
More sex means less frustration about lack of sex, less sex means more. Why jump through hoops to make it about personal failing or some other indirect cause?
It’s not a ‘goal’ there is no purpose or goal to evolution or life…it’s a property of life that it propagates itself but that’s not the goal, reproduction is a function or a property of life. You could also argue the ‘goal’ is survival and there are sticks and carrots poking at making an organism survive, but again it just sounds like you’re misunderstanding how those words are used in academia, you’re doing the same thing with fitness. Fitness in evolution isn’t about running or being strong it’s how well an organism functions in its environment and what makes an organism fit varies from organism to organism and environment to environment.
One of us is misunderstanding for sure.
Fitness is a quantitative representation of individual reproductive success.
You’re conflating metaphysical goals with the literal biological goals of propogation. It has nothing to do with survival, plenty of animals sacrifice themselves after reproducing, either as a food source or lack of evolutionary pressure to stay alive. The human exceptionalism that our awareness puts us above these natural processes is part of the problem.
Yeah you’re the one misunderstanding lol
Must be a reading comprehension issue, I specifically pointed to genetic [biological] fitness in that context. The definition is right there, I’m not wrong. I can reword it if you want: “my argument is explicitly not supporting eugenics”
And still, no actual counter argument. Just responses that might as well be “I don’t like what you’re saying” followed by a short philosophical essay. What humans morally should or shouldn’t do is completely orthogonal to what humans are as biological creatures.
If I’m misunderstanding the dozens of hours of conversations I’ve had with personal friends who professionally research animal+human evolution and behavioral neuroscience, please enlighten me. To summarize my understanding:
- Sex is a widely researched topic, it’s mental health benefits are well established and there are dozens of studies on the physiological benefits in multiple species.
- Neural pathways for sexual behavior have ties to drug addiction and violence.
- Disrupting or over stimulating those pathways has very clear behavioral implications.
All of this points to a very reasonable statement: humans are designed for a non-zero amount sex and large deviations from that can negatively impact social behavior.
People in this thread hallucinate that as an endorsement of regressive public policy or toxic ideology. It’s possible (if you reeeeally really stretch your mind) to want more healthy sexual behavior in society without also supporting sexual enslavement.
It’s not though. I’m not working backwards. I’m just not writing a dissertation. It’s possible to observe lack of sex leading to psychological pain in all the different societies throughout all of history we have as humans. It’s incredibly more likely to be caused by our biology than by artificially created societal expectations.
I agree with you because it’s my anecdotal life experience. I’m quite successful in terms of my career and finances. I’m pretty good looking and outgoing. I’m also a single dad and I’m in a nearly year-long dry spell. My self esteem is awful. Not having sex is torture for me and it has nothing to do with societal norms. It’s just biological misery.
There’s always more to it as well. That’s maybe what people don’t get. Yeah, not having sex is terrible, but if it’s the only thing unpleasant it’s bearable. But if other shit starts piling on top, then it becomes misery. Then people might say “oh it’s only society”.
Hope you’ll feel better friend. Seems you’ve got the masturbation going nicely already, so that helps 🤣
Lol what else can you do I guess.
Yeah sure, but it’s also one of the most natural things in the world to bite people
Of course it is, if you have rabies
Rabies is natural ;3
I’m asexual. Can’t relate, I guess.
EDIT: Wait, that’s even shittier!! People unable or have difficulty reproducing are worth less to society?? I may be a bit naïve, but I don’t believe that’s a majority of society believes something like that. That’s disgusting.
The comment was about self worth not societal worth. Being asexual shouldn’t matter with that argument because you wouldn’t feel the same sexual drive; your self worth isn’t impacted.
Self-worth can be a result of societal expectations. Your parents badgering you about how you should “go get married and have a family” to show how “successful” you are as a person is very much a thing. It can greatly impact a person.
The only reason a person would feel bad is because society is pushing the narrative that they should feel bad if they aren’t having sex with someone.
Self-worth can be a result of societal expectations.
Sure true, but you can’t ignore that humans have millions of years of evolution that have honed our physiological and social behavior to act a certain way. Just because it’s not rational doesn’t mean you can flip a switch and shrug it off.
For example, peer pressure in teens is more than a normal learned behavior. The need to conform to an in-group that (historically) will be your lifelong community is immense. The pain of exclusion and embarrassment is amplified, closer to actual physical pain, compared to what an adult/child might feel in the same situation.
The only reason a person would feel bad is because
society is pushing the narrative…is because reproduction is a core part of animal evolution. An asexual person saying that core discomfort is invalid is like a person who can’t feel physical pain rolling their eyes at touching a hot stove.
I’m not saying it’s invalid, I’m just saying that I personally don’t believe that it’s the true core of the issue!
It’s way more than just “Men mad because monke brain want sex mad because no sex”.
What is the core of the issue? “Society bad”? There are a lot of comorbid social ills but you can’t reduce everything to your favorites.
Economic frustration will likely manifest as anti immigrant sentiment. Extremist groups provide inclusion as a cure for social isolation. Degrading healthcare systems are fertile ground for anti-vax and pseudo-medicine. Digital echo chambers give a space to amplify every toxic narrative.
Occam’s razor says the guys preaching the fatalistic misogyny gospel are probably experiencing some strong sexual frustration. If they didn’t have that problem they could find something else to be mad about.
No toxic ideology precludes the others, but a racist with a stable marriage isn’t going to be blackpilled. He already knows minorities are the real problem.
Dunno what to tell you, but your second sentence is just wrong. It is mainly “men mad because monke brain want sex”.
You only think it’s not because like you said, you can’t relate to most people since you’re asexual.
-20
They hated them because they told the truth.
It’s not the absolute truth. But it’s most likely the largest part of the explanation.
People like putting blame on “society”, and while societal pressures surely play a part, the reason it’s so nice to mainly blame society is because it creates a problem that has an acceptable solution.
Because what do you say when you say society is mainly to blame here? You’re saying it’s completely fine for many men not to have sex. Just have to fix society making it hard for them to live without sex. If my assumption is correct though, that doesn’t help those men very much. But who does it help? Anyone those men would want to have sex with, because they’re not under “threat” anymore.
Pro tip: getting laid creates more problems than it solves.
Oh, I’m well aware. I’m one of those problems. 😎
Pro tip: don’t say “getting laid”, ever, unless you want to sound misogynistic.
Aren’t these guys misusing blackpilled? I thought it was specifically for suicide not just going NEET? Which like we should talk about but not through this corporate productivity-washed drivel.
If you also didn’t know
“Not in Education, Employment or Training”, its an acronym for people that don’t go to school, don’t work and are mot looking for work.
Valid point, as well, given that part way through the article she says she’s watching a guy who is working, he’s just doing what would be considered frontline labor and I guess that underemployment is what’s qualifying that guy as a NEET? At least that’s how I understood her take, which, as we’ve said, is not what this acronym is supposed to mean.
Also it’s a backronym from the similar Japanese term which refers to a growing number of people there who have abandoned society and hole themselves up in their room literally never going outside.
Wictionary says it went the other way from NEET to ニート(nīto): https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/ニート
You’re probably thinking of 引きこもり(hikikomori): https://en.m.wiktionary.org/wiki/引きこもり#Japanese
I always found “hikikomori” very amusing, because if it was slightly different, and written “hikikomero”, it would literally mean “sweat closet” in Finnish (hiki = sweat, komero =closet) , which is a very apt concept for how lots of hikikomori live.
Sounds like another name for a sauna to me 😅
That is true as well.
But having like a few pc’s and a microgrow going in a small dark room isn’t too far from a sauna
Reading these comments makes understanding why the world is in its current state, extremely easy
Keep preaching and applying that brand of empathy guys, it will surely pay off eventually
The simple fact is no one really cares about the plight of men, and this is obvious when you look at social service funding and especially homeless shelters.
We are in a ‘bare branch’ crisis, and back when this happened in medieval China, whole gangs of angry unmarriable men would form raider bands and just pillage and rape until they were put down by the military. It happened so often that warring states would purposely stage useless battles with massive losses on both sides to keep down the ‘bare branch’ population so they didn’t get to rioting levels.
Maybe the fact that warfare is no longer culling the most desperate, lonely, and impressionable men has let to such a large population of unfocused, angry, lonely, and fundamentally unlikeable males.
It’s mainly because biologically we evolved to have kids and die on a hunt, our evolution pressures just aren’t capable of handling a male population without a certain degree of unnatural casualty.
While we’re making shit up, did you know the sky is purple? 1 + 1 = 3. Since we don’t need sources, up is down, and you are correct. You are also not an incel, and it’s 25 o clock.
Sounds like Bullshit, got an sources for that?
I’m actually impressed at how ridiculous this is. But I’ll bite:
What’s the plight of men?
Is it sexual frustration?
Is the solution ensuring that young men have access to sex, regardless of the means or impact on women?
If that isn’t feasible, are we simply supposed to engage in war to cull off these sex-starved, victimized men who seemingly are incapable of contributing to society in any other way then impregnating women and waging violence?
If so, what is the benefit of living in such a world?
Men see their value as partners, leaders, and providers and also see little viable paths to be any of those things.
It’s the same issues as other genders to some degree just a lot of society really doesn’t want to listen to a man who’s down and out, because toxic masculinity isn’t just how men act but also how society can expect men to act.
Our legends are soldiers who die for great things. Workers that broke their bodies for the loved ones. Psychopath that gave up their humanity to be something important. All of which imply that just being isn’t important not by itself, and again that how people treat you. Try just being, not “making something of your self”, not “being a generous lover/boyfriend/husband”, just being a person and people honestly treat you like crap.
The dude that fed the ducks where I lived was fucking awesome, but people treated him like he was a fucking bum. The apartments harassed him for taking care of them.
The homeless people I’ve talked to, almost always had the same story, hardworking to take care of a family, something took them from them, drugs, cheating, injury (and thus disability), and then when they “had nothing” they dropped out.
Everyone hears their stories and thinks the same thing though, that they buck up and do something with their lives. Never just for their sake, not because having connections and meaning in their lives would be good for them, but it’s disgusting to others to not be useful.
Sexual frustration isn’t the cause but it is comorbid. It isn’t even nearly as much a problem as the crushing loss of self worth that poverty and hopelessness bring. It’s just the only frustration that society allows men to express is sexual because anything else is weakness. It’s that lack of self worth that make such men unappealing.
The cause is there is no reason to work for a future in a world that will barely reward you enough to survive for your hardest, most skilled efforts. Tons of young men are now looking at a bleak future and let’s be realistic, you aren’t going to be a good partner till you are financially stable.
There’s no reason to be a good member of society if the people most greatly rewarded are the ones that abuse the social contract, so a lot of men just don’t see the appeal in being appealing.
Why work on yourself if you can never afford to take a partner out? Or have time to? Why make the effort to court possible rejection when you can just sit around online with all your other lonely, attention starved, hopeless, emotionally suppressed fellows and share things that piss you off
Because being angry feels better than being depressed, and the two can’t really live in the same head.
So they stoke their hate, whatever flavor they have of it, to feel anything other than alone, unwanted, and depressed.
And after a while some clots of hate coagulate into a target or a movement, and then well if the world isn’t going to reward them for their best efforts, why not burn it all the fuck down?
As lemmy is just as biased and irrational as reddit, I fully expect this to get me banned from yet another community.
I’m not the guy you’re responding to but here’s my thoughts on it based off my experience.
Is it sexual frustration?
I’d wager that that’s a big part of the problem for a lot of them. I know it was for me when I was younger. Seeing your peers entering into relationships while you can’t seem to get even a second glance from a woman does a number on you. Especially when you can’t figure out what the problem is. I was fortunate that things turned around for me pretty quickly once I got out of the toxic high school environment and moved onto a different social circle in college that helped me get out of my shell. A lot of dudes aren’t that lucky and just get stuck in that bad mindset where they feel like it’s hopeless which then takes them on to all kinds of nasty places as time goes on.
Is the solution ensuring that young men have access to sex, regardless of the means or impact on women?
No, in my opinion the solution is making mental health services available to help teach them how to deal with whatever it is that’s making it hard for them to find a partner or to cope with it if it’s something that can’t be resolved. Also just having more social opportunities in general to get people offline and meeting and interacting with each other more would be nice. Women certainly aren’t responsible for making sure men are all getting laid as often as they want but sexual frustration/loneliness is a problem a lot of men struggle with coming to terms with and it does fuck up their lives sometimes.
I think that’s a very sanitary answer. My opinion? It’s not some mysterious sociological quandary to unravel why men are sexually frustrated and lonely. These young men have few prospects, a bleak future, and have been raised with exploitative social media that’s slowly eroded their critical thinking skills and empathy towards others. Their failure to achieve a life they’ve been told they’re entitled to all their lives breeds resentment and is being manipulated against women and minorities as a function of social engineering through social media algorithms.
Our next door neighbor is an 80 year old man with 12 grandkids, a nice house and every one of his kids was fully paid for college
He had a high school diploma and was functionally illiterate
He worked as a gas station attentand until they made him manager and he retired with a pension.
NO ONE WILL EVER HAVE THAT AGAIN
Based comment. In our society, men still believe in working 50+ hours a week for peanuts, so we won’t see any of these gangs forming any time soon. Maybe a few active clubs though lol
What a terrible article. NEETS and lie flat movement has almost no overlap with incels.
Ostensibly the whole world has been online for enough time now. Yet everyone continues to demonstrate a remarkable lack of ability to grasp internet cultures.
It makes no sense. Like trying to explain technology to my elderly grandma. Except she knows she’s very old and out of touch. What’s everyone elses excuse. It’s made even worse because everyone else thinks they are digitial culture savvy.
It’s intentional to cause infighting and and to help build the association between neets and incels.
Ars Technica is owned by Conde Nast media conglomerate, which is owned by Advanced Publications, which is owned and controlled by the billionaire Newhouse Family.
That’s why Steve Newhouse wants these types of articles to be written, because it obfuscates truth and pushes division.
Nothing will meaningfully improve until the rich fear for their lives
And what do you base that of? It’s incredibly easy to identify the cause of that overlap…
They overlap because they are all rejects and failures with no prospects.
Since we’ve past growth now there are precious few winners in a zero sum game. Why even try, if you’re not cut to be a liar and a thief?
…I’m honestly not sure if this is sarcasm or not - if you’re pointing out a problematic point of view or if you’re attacking the people the article is talking about.
deleted by creator
As always nothing will be done on a public level.
US version of Japan’s Hikikomori?
I thought school was for basic education, not getting ready for the labor market.
The point of school is to churn out workers. The government didn’t throw money into education because it felt generous.
Ya’ll are forgetting it also doubles as childcare for all the workers you’re employing, but paid for by the state, which is why capital was behind it.
Oh, 100%. But we wouldn’t need childcare if the kids could work the factories. Unfortunately, that needs a minimum level of education.
In a democracy, you should have good schools for the simple reason as to have a people that’s actually able to carry a democracy.
The United States is a flawed democracy, so we have good schools for few and great schools for fewer.
I don’t think I need to learn chemistry and physics to get a job.
They’re worth learning to understand the universe and the history of how that knowledge was derived and/or discovered.
If it helps you get a job, all the better, but they’re worth learning for their own sake.
And that’s how we accidentally get chlorine gas made by the janitors
That hasn’t been the case… Ever I think. We’re still trapped in the industrial revolution’s education system - create laborers - but with a lot of extraneous bullshit tacked on in an attempt to mesh it’s obsolescence with modernity and labor-saving tech. It’s always been about controlling the workers.
Originally, school was for the nobility and (fledgling) bourgeois, so they could run their spreadsheets, wage wars, and impress people with trivia, everyone else’s education came from family tradition, neighbours (farmers talking farming stuff), or an education in the trades. Want to study geometry? At some point, the best option was to become a mason. And they would swear you to secrecy.
Universal education is a brainchild of Martin Luther, he wanted everyone to be able to read so that all could read the Bible.
Yeah but everything changed when the
Fire Nation attackedIndustrial Revolution began.
Sorry to burst your bubble. We’re all just pawns for the capitalists.
My bubble is already completely destroyed.
At least keep walking and become a queen.
I had to check where I had seen your name before. :)
I say burn the board.
:) But don’t hold that in my favor.
Burning the board reverses development. Which decision in the past was wrong that could have led to a better society?
We would make the same mistakes again.
We could create a white pill. When groups of humans become enemies and it’s ok to hate them, then somebody is playing a fascist playbook and it becomes time to offer an alternative to all participants. (Which is just other words for ‘pawns of capitalists’.)
From my current pov, there is no good life, hell not any life on this planet in the future, under capitlism.
The infinite extraction of profit needs to go.
That is what I mean by burn the board. Because the idea that the pawns are only able to run towards the enemy in the hope of becoming a queen (which is the epitome of the carrot on a stick) is just sick.
How to change human nature? People could stop being pawns and redefine the game but they don’t do it. Here, NEETS stop playing the game and they are immediately shunned by society. People can’t stand to see in others what they have to suppress in themselves.
The end of capitalism would require some benevolent people to be in control or a majority of society that doesn’t fall for manipulations.
The best that I can imagine is that those who don’t like capitalism create their own island, kind of like the situation in brave new world. Fortunately I am not that clever so I hope that others find a better solution.
How to change human nature?
you mean the neoliberalist take of social darwinism. thats debunked. people are born good and empathetic. even evolution has not happened as capitalists like to picture it. not the strongest individuum has prevailed but the most kooperative group.
People could stop being pawns and redefine the game but they don’t do it.
The next neoliberalist take of individualizing systemic problems. people have zero real influence on their lives. there are also very few countries that even have a semblance of democracy. even in germany, people are so manipulated that they obviously decide against their own self interest.
The best that I can imagine is that those who don’t like capitalism create their own island, kind of like the situation in brave new world.
That is currently being done. Many places are building horizontal, base democratic communities. It also has been done many times over, but capitalist countries have destroyed a lot of them. Sometimes killing the people involved.
The western countries are in a very precarious situation in terms of democracy. Capitalism is ultimately a fascist system (absolutist hierarchies, eviction of the weak, darwinism) and will always lead to fascism if unrestrained.
Some ideas of people are either solely worker owned companies, full blown democratic socialism or base democracy with federation. All promising concepts.
Hmm maybe at one point but that point is long gone
I’m sure they expect others to take care of them though. Like giant house pets.
Lmao
Fuck these losers. Just discard them from society.
deleted by creator
Fuck off, LLM post
What key on your keyboard did you press to write out the Unicode character U+2014, the em-dash several times?
My guy, this was AI generated
That’s the joke.
Was this written by an LLM?
First sentence I already thought this sounds 100% like an LLM
First sentence was a dead giveaway, I didn’t bother to read further
Fight hard in the comment section, brocels! Victory is coming!!! A lot of comments here missed the point - the article isn’t talking about pssy, it’s primarily about job prospects. Incels are just men who fail in every way in which it’s possible to fail. Lack of pssy is just a normal result of having no money, no status and no job.
a creepy tv show with a kid who is supposedly atttractively psychopathic? puhlees. you cant handle raising kids. teenages scare the shit out of me. get over it. some karen wrote that script because she had post partum depression in the 200th trimester. grow a pair skag.
