Y’all, this is a perfect example of how religion retconning works.
Christian Afterlife Lore with pergatory.
vs.
Catholic Afterlife Lore without.
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Purgatory is actually much newer. It didn’t become dogma in the Catholic Church until 1274. Over 1200 years after Christ.
hence the retcon
Ah I thought you were saying it was the other way around.
Light Sabers are the core of Star Wars, and they’re some of the stupidist BS imaginable.
You have this device where the blade is made out of “light” so has no weight to it, and that can cut through virtually anything, and you’re swinging it around like a maniac instead of just doing foil-style fencing moves to poke holes in your opponent from a safe range? In a world where there’s no armour and the merest touch of the blade cuts instantly, duels should be over in seconds of intense action like an olympic fencing duel instead of involving lots of big dramatic parries.
Fighters should do virtually everything possible to stay outside the range of their opponent’s blade. Any part of that blade touches you and you lose a limb or have a hole straight through you. There isn’t even a safe part of the sword, like the flat of a real sword’s blade, and there are no handguards or protective hilts, so parrying is even more dangerous.
But, no. Big swings of lightey-uppey things look “cool” so there are these extremely long fight scenes with glowy things hitting other glowy things and actors striking dramatic poses, plus guys with twirly double-sided weapons and other bullshit.
Compare that to the fighting in Dune, where a personal shield can only be penetrated by something moving slowly. There’s a good concept that leads to an interesting style of fighting.
Ah, I see you too have been sucked into the hema YouTube rabbit hole. I would take self-described medieval martial arts experts opining on science fantasy with a grain of salt.
Like your reasoning is fine and the fights probably should be more fencing-like, but we also have to consider that Jedi are not normal beings. There’s a lot going on invisibly in those fights, like how they’re channeling the force into all their actions as well as experiencing a kind of prescience. So it begs the question, what does a fight look like with that kind of meta?
doing foil-style fencing moves
Fighters should do virtually everything possible to stay outside the range of their opponent’s blade
So I know what you are saying and you have a point.
But I find it funny as the modern olympic fencing boils down to “I stabbed you a split second before you stabbed me! I win!”
Yeah, good point. People make essentially suicidal attacks in modern sport fencing because as long as they touch their opponent first the fact they were run through a tenth of a second later doesn’t matter. But, a lot of fencing is staying at least one blade’s length away from the opponent and probing and poking, so up until that final suicidal attack they’re giving the opponent’s weapon plenty of respect.
Depends on the particular fencing style. Sabre and Foil have right-of-way and Epee does not. So in Epee, it’s whoever strikes first. In the others, the person who initiates the attack gets the point if they both touch during the attack regardless of who touched first.
It sounds silly, but part of the idea with foil and sabre is that they were initially training for actual self-defense, where it didn’t matter if you stabbed your attacker if you got killed in the process. So the rule was you had to first keep yourself from getting touched before you could try and score a point of your own.
So the rule was you had to first keep yourself from getting touched before you could try and score a point of your own.
That doesn’t sound like it leads logically to “you get the point if you were the aggressor, even if you also get touched” but sports rules are often many layers of arcane nonsense with too much deference given to the past. (I’d treat it more like a serve fault in tennis. Reckless attack is a do-over, twice in a row is a point for the other person.)
I would have expected some kenjutsu/kendo type attacks over purely thrusting though.
The light saber has the ability to be as good or better of a “slashing” weapon as a thrusting, despite the lack of curvature. It’s closer to a long sword than a saber in the way it would be used in the absence of sci-fi handwaving, but with the whole vibe of the Jedi being monkish, that Lucas pretty much ignored eastern blade fighting entirely, and samurai shit in particular is kinda weird. Like, Chinese jian styles are closer to what would work with a blade of the same size and general shape, and is just as cinematic as what got used in the prequels.
But kenjutsu and iaido could make for seriously dramatic force mojo duels rather than expecting us to watch Yoda and Palpatine do acrobatics in complete opposition to their very centered and cerebral behavior in all other aspects.
It isn’t even about realism to me, because it’s just wizards with swords fantasy set in space, not hard sci-fi. But I really would have expected more control, more precision, more internal mastery of their weapons.
The light saber has the ability to be as good or better of a “slashing” weapon as a thrusting
Sure, but that’s unnecessary. To be able to cut / slash you have to get closer than you need to get to just poke, and why risk it? Really, just tape one to the end of a long pole and you have a spear that you can use at even longer range with even less risk to yourself.
Two factors, ignoring the sci-fi part of things.
First, depending on armor levels, a slashing/chopping/cutting attack can be directed at places other than center of mass and be very effective. This gives you reach that you just can’t achieve while expecting to end a fight via thrusting. As a general thing, it’s referred to as defanging the serpent. You attack the parts that either hold your opponent’s weapon, or otherwise allow them to attack.
This means in practice that someone doing standard thrust attacks can be at a major disadvantage unless they are significantly faster than their enemy.
Second, even if you don’t defang the serpent, you can still attack the wrists, ankles, or arms from a better distance. You bleed the fucker out. This favors the kind of mobile, angular footwork you’ll see in some forms of sword fighting. Lunges are necessary to close distance inside of reach. At some point, you limit yourself to a single angle of attack. Depending on your training and physical capabilities, a straight lunge is one of the easiest attacks to avoid and counter.
When it’s done with something that can also slash, it decreases your exposure and allows for some really nasty feints for sure, but you’ve still largely committed to a movement. Committing like that can be good or bad, but if you’re against someone that’s countering you from angles you can’t quickly pivot to, you end up in trouble.
Now, the argument for spears against swords is absolutely a good one. Reach is king in most fights, no matter the weapon or lack thereof. Mass is often queen, though I really dislike gendering ideas like this. It’s just the frame of reference I was given back in the day, so it sticks in my head better.
But, spears are not the best 1 on 1 weapon, at least not the usual spear with a long shaft. The shorter spears like assegi are fucking beast mode, though generally are used with a shield, and thus hard to properly assess for a thrust vs slash kind of comparison. Plus, while I have fucked with spears, including short spears, I don’t have anywhere near the actual sparring time in.
Anyway, point is that the point is at the end of a long stick. That length is a lever. When that spear is side by side with other spears and a shield wall, you’re an idiot to run in with a sword.
But when that spear is alone? It’s trivial to deflect and avoid. And I say trivial with the full meaning. It’s absurdly easy. You run into some guys that train with kingfu type spears that can make it way less easy, but then again, that’s not really the same weapon as you’d have if you taped a light saber to a big stick. They function in a different way than more rigid spears.
Now, let it be known that, despite the user name, I have nowhere near as much time in with swords. I did okay, I’ve trained and sparred, but I was always more of a knife guy. A lot of the same principles apply, but stabby stabby only in knife use is vastly inferior to using the entire weapon as needed. Trying to use something like a Fairbairn Sykes dagger against a bowie is not going to end well unless you’re significantly better than the bowie guy. Different tools for different jobs, you dig?
Now, I agree that the on screen jedi moves are absurdly inefficient. There’s people that have learned the stuff that was designed for the movies, and they get their asses handed to them if they try it sparring. Too many openings, too much wasted energy. None of it works unless you’re using the kind of extra light performance sabers that are built for it. The balance of the weapons aren’t right otherwise. Well, mostly. There’s footage of some of those folks using aggression and mobility to do quite well, but it’s still with unrealistic practice weapons.
But if you had an actual light saber, you’d stay tight, keep things close and do controlled slashes, more akin to what you see in kenjutsu. Mind you, most kenjutsu is two handed, not single, so there’s only limited on screen stuff that makes for 1:1 comparison.
Honestly, Dooku is the most realistic swordsman in the prequels.
So in defense of all this. I think the in-universe lore is that only Jedi and Sith can use lightsabers in this fashion, because the force prevents them from self injuring with a lightsaber.
So they end up with access to a more dangerous move set offensively than someone with a standard sword in our reality. Which also lends itself to different defensive capabilities and thus you get all this saber-fu shit.
Hell maybe there is an “aura” like component of the force and Jedi vs Sith battles have another layer of complextion. Basically these otherwise useless poses actually have an effect via the force itself.
Enabling the use of double light saber bullshit, and etc
I’m not saying it’s any less bullshit.
because the force prevents them from self injuring with a lightsaber
That’s fine, but they keep putting themselves in the range of their opponents’ light sabers. If they’d made the lore that a Jedi / Sith can exude a force field that allows them to take a hit with a light saber and that only a certain, powerful type of hit can do damage, then maybe they can be justified in getting within the other’s striking range. But, really it’s just that they want these extended slash and parry sequences with these light-up devices so they end up with these silly, unrealistic fights that are badly filmed to show the action and instead just show twirling glowy things.
Think of the force like Jedis being able to anticipate movements and react ultra fast and it becomes less bullshit. If those fights played in slow-motion for normal humans, it would make sense that they could go on for longer without injury. Then a win happens with sensory overload or distractions - when a fighter misleads the other to believe an attack will be coming from where it won’t actually come, they get a killing blow.
Think of the force like Jedis being able to anticipate movements and react ultra fast and it becomes less bullshit
Not really because eventually you’re still going to take a hit if you’re inside the other guy’s striking range. If you stay outside and lunge in like a fencer you don’t risk that eventual injury / death.
Yeah force users all got like low grade Spidey Sense.
Honestly, that’s why I think the original fight of Obi-Wan vs Vader was so good. They kind of fought like that.
Yeah, it was a lot more probing at long distance. They basically established a style, but it wasn’t flashy enough, so with each new movie it becomes even more bullshit.
The audience also cared for the characters and their motives. That’s what made it good.
Yeah, but:
steven segal motions
The Force.
Haha, I made a huge comment to say basically this and then that made me laugh so hard reading this.
You guys didn’t even mention the midichlorians!
They’re actually dance fighting.
But it isn’t even good, stylish dance fighting because Hollywood is so bad at filming action scenes.
The problem is they called them light sabres, so, naturally, they must be wielded maniacally.
Except a saber is basically a cavalry sword, and they’re not cavalry (or even dragoons).
My headcanon is that Mace once got a little carried away during a duel in his younger years, his emotions getting the better of him and this began to “bleed” his then-blue lightsaber. But he began to see the error of his ways and carries this lightsaber as a reminder of the fragile balance between light and dark.
Then of course they had to give other Jedi purple lightsabers and mess this up.
He studied a style that is a bit closer to the dark side so that he can channel the emotions of a dark side user against them. This was why he was able to defeat Palpatine pretty easily while his support were finished quickly and even Yoda was only able to fight him to a draw. Windu was a hard counter for Palpatine.
So your headcanon wasn’t completely off vs what was in the EU.
That’s a lot of pages to say a motherfucker wanted a purple motherfucking lightsaber.
IIRC it says something about how his saber is motherfucking electric rather than crystalic.
Isn’t SW all just retcon now anyway?
It’s not like Lucas started with a complete world like Tolkien, just some ideas.
Watch In Deep Geek on YouTube. Tolkien’s world was ever changing. That’s what made it so hard for Christopher Tolkien to put together the later books. At one point Sauron was an evil cat.
A real evil cat, dig
One of my favorites is the Jedi master robes. In the original trilogy, Lucas clearly intended Luke’s black robes to be the “master” garb, but Obi-Wan was already so iconic that future Jedi wound up matching the bland desert outfit that he happened to be wearing.
Damn. Soul crushed, thanks for nothin
which also makes less sense, obi wan was hiding on the very desert planet Anakin came from, close to where Luke was, dressed as a jedi master.
Yoda had the right idea.
I always thought he got black because he was a little bit dark side being Vader’s kid, just simple visual theme thing.
Even Tolkien retconned The Hobbit, and the series is better for it imo. Art with living authors doesn’t have to be static.
There’s definitely a limit where it starts to just get ridiculous, though.
I’m the subset of SW nerd that grew up reading the Expanded Universe novels pre-Phantom Menace. It’s all been cut, scrambled, recanonized, re-decanonized, and outright contradicted so many times it’s lost all meaning.
Yes. Still some cool stories there. Heaps and heaps of trash too though.
And then Disney came along, saying they could do better.
They couldn’t.
Most of it. That said I seem to remember playing star wars dark forces II prior to episode 1 came out and different colored lightsabers were already a thing there. (Unless my memory serves me wrong)
There was only one instance of a repeated lightsaber colour in the OT (Obi-Wan’s and Luke’s original saber were both blue) so for the early years of the EU it was just assumed they could be any colour.
Funny thing is we only see four lightsabers in total in the original trilogy. We have Luke’s first lightsaber that was originally Anakin’s [blue], Luke’s second lightsaber he built after losing the first one fighting Vader [green], Obiwan’s lightsaber [blue], and Vader’s lightsaber [red]. And that’s it. So in some ways it doesn’t surprise me that the amount of lore expanded greatly once the prequels came out.
Honestly he started with even less than that. People like Lawrence Kasdan, John Dykstra, and many others, don’t get enough credit for their contributions.
Thank you for your service, Mr. Jackson.
Speaking of cool stuff Mace Windu had or did, was Vaapad a thing before his character came along?
Is that the name of his Jedi angry-style? There’s similar concepts but I think he pioneered that physical fighting style in particular. It’s how he got his “grey Jedi” chosen-one complex that made him so vindictive to Anakin
Squid-guy is doing something similar with force lightning, but that’s more about squid people having a different spectrum of emotions that lets them use techniques that would be normally associated with the dark side.
Edit: After writing this I just realized this entire IP was just Wuxia genre the whole time. We were lied to.
