Summary
Elon Musk faced backlash from his followers on X after advocating for importing “super talented engineers” to address a shortage in the U.S. tech industry.
Musk likened hiring top foreign talent to building a championship sports team and argues that there is a shortage of talented and motivated American engineers.
Critics argued there’s sufficient U.S. talent being overlooked or underpaid, with some pointing to widespread tech layoffs.
Musk dismissed claims of low wages or training gaps, maintaining a need for exceptional engineering talent to advance innovation.
Yeah, when you import your slaves you can pay them less and they’re more subservient because they don’t want to be deported. It also drives down the wages for US citizens that perform the same jobs. News flash, there are plenty of good software engineers in America. They just aren’t going to work 60 hours a week for 60k a year while the company they work for posts billions in profit each year.
If you need my skill and time to make a million dollars, I better be getting at least 15-20% of that profit. Employers can obviously afford to pay it if they can give a CEO that barely does shit 250 mil plus stock options
Musk replied. “OF COURSE my companies and I would prefer to hire Americans and we DO, as that is MUCH easier than going through the incredibly painful and slow work visa process. HOWEVER, there is a dire shortage of extremely talented and motivated engineers in America.”
I’Ve BuRnEd OuT aLl ThE WiLlInG nErDs hErE aNd I nEeD tO bUy SoMe FrOm OvEr ThErE1!1!
Right-Wing bootlickers continue to learn they aren’t in the in-crowd they desperately seek to join.
Super talented = extremely desperate foreigners who’ll work 90hr weeks for very low pay.
Just in case anyone needed a translation.
And who are really indentured servitude type slaves
I was “lucky” enough to be around during the dot-com meltdown and seeing H-1Bs still being used/abused, even as so many citizens were being cast away. This scam has been around for quite some time. The cap was 115K in 99 and 2000.
Perversely, when the bubble really started taking its toll, the cap was 195K from 2001-2003.
During much of this time period, you’d look around and see 200 people applying for one cruddy junior/intermediate type of software engineer position. Why the cap was not zeroed out in emergency legislation tells you all you need to know about anyone looking out for Americans who work for a living.
Companies claiming things are so dire that they just cannot find the local talent are so very full of it. If they were the least bit genuine, they’d be paying HIGHER wages to the people they do bring in on a visa and they’d be lobbying for permanent status, not this six year max thing.
Now if Elmo was talking about basically being a worldwide talent scout to bring people here with full citizenship status AND being paid top dollar, we’d be talking something different, but if he’s talking about more H-1Bs, it’s the same old shit as it ever was…
He didn’t explain to them that holders of H1B visas have to stay with the corporation that hires them or else they get deported. It’s semi-slavery. Conservatives would love it.
That’s the only way to keep salaries depressed, which is why they’re brought in. If they could switch jobs, there’d be competition among potential employers and the salaries would increase. The whole H1B scheme is a filthy racket. It depresses the wages of non-H1B workers, it exploits those on an H1B visa, and there’s a whole cottage industry of faking recruitment campaigns before showing that a company was “forced” to fill a critical skills shortage with an H1B holder. For example, the qualifications can be written so that only people on certain Indian of Chinese computer-science courses can have the required coursework. Not that the applicant necessarily took the course, though: there’s another cottage industry in India and in China of people doing exams on someone else’s behalf.
And then there’s industrial espionage…
Yep. What I don’t get is when people that are supposedly “nationalist” aren’t even patriotic enough to just open up immigration so that the talent pool stays HERE. It’s all about just short-term profits for private tyrannies and everyone else can apparently go fuck themselves, citizens included.
The ones that know about it already love it very much.
He’s so fucking stupid. It’s exhausting.
Well, I’m not sure I’d call it stupid, exactly. He wants indentured servants, cheap. It’s about accruing more power and wealth to himself.
Now, our government should be set up to STOP unregulated capitalism like this, but at this point, it’s been captured by the capitalists, and they are basically there to give a huge assist to capitalists instead.
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Bit of both, Mysk didn’t even complete his college degree. Being born into money does not, by default, correlate to intelligence
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So you want TWO Trumps?!
Well, not in this case. In this case, Musk is absolutely right. Probably what he would actually be if he hadn’t gone full to the weird dark side.
What I’m reading is that he wants Chinese or Indian engineers because they are as qualified as the next guy, they’re already used to insane hours and no holidays AND he can just pay them their original wage, which is peanuts compared to what US engineers make. Also once he’s done with them he can just deport them. What’s not to like?!
The broligarchs have always loved the H-1B fraud.
The future of the US
I know most people will write this off as him being an idiot, but I believe he’s doing this to distract from his involvement with the government. It’s all theater to distract us from what he and the politicians he’s heavily involved with are actually doing. Add in his involvement in the tech trade, and it’s actually really disturbing what he may be doing.
“import” like it’s livestock. Strategically avoiding the word “migration”, too.
Human Commodities
I believe it was a CEO of British Airways that referred to passengers as “self-loading cargo”, so it’s not like it’s new that the haves see the have-nots as a resource to be managed.
Lol the airline industry has some pretty good terms, my personal favorite is “wet lease”.
Mine is See You Next Tuesday.
Musk doesn’t want a championship sports team, he wants a cheap, desperate, obedient source of labour.
Ah yes, the American dream.
The American Dream has long since been corrupted by the wealthy into a pipe dream for the masses that funnels more money to the rich.
All the way since the first company arrived here—the Virginia Company, that is. A handful of OG tech bros who found themselves a land of unrestricted resources and no boss around. They just needed some customers. And thus began immigration.
“That’s why they call it the American Dream, because you have to be asleep to believe it! -George Carlin
Yeah, he just wants more pliant and subservient H1B visa holders that he can pay less than he’d have to offer to an American, who will be deported after 2 months if they don’t work hard enough to satisfy him.
Oh. Right.
By ‘deported’, I guess we’re now talking about ‘rounded up into mass concentration camps.’
I had a friend back a few years ago who was an H1B and it’s fucking exploitive. They made him work off his visa. And since his visa is tied to his job he couldn’t leave it. The place was toxic af.
The company was very much abusing H1B visas but unless someone at the company spoke up, it’s just business.
The place was toxic af.
What I’ve seen at such places is that they will often put some Indian into a management position and they will squeeze blood from a stone like you wouldn’t believe, flogging H1Bs (all Indian in many cases), and hiring no citizens if they can help it, other than just a token or two.
But the tokens will quickly learn their job is under constant threat if they get any notions of being uppity - the Indian H1Bs being there as a lesson that doesn’t have to really be explained…
And yeah, it’s toxic as anything.
Even worse when the company exploits the caste system. Since most Indian migrants still believe in that shit.
I used to contract at MSFT back during the 360 3RR era, me and my boss were reworking the support phone tree process flow, because it was wholly inadequate and had many infinite loops that a caller and support agent would end up in…
But yeah, during that, I routinely saw Indian H1B contractors being viciously abused by their higher ups in the caste system who were full time employees.
I tried to call out some of this, and HR’s line was literally that it was not politically correct of me to criticize this, because well thats just normal in their culture.
Its fucking disgusting.
MSFT has an entire company culture of its own caste system of various kind of contractors who are basically all lied to by recruiters telling them if they work really hard they’ll become full time employees with much better pay and benefits… in reality, that almost never happens, because project managers are all full time, and will routinely sabotage their own projects if the alternative is to actually keep a team on long enough that they’d become full time.
As a recent example of what I mean by this:
Halo Infinite.
MSFT hired a whole team of temp contractors to overhaul the engine that Halo ran on, to massively upgrade it.
By the time significant Halo Infinite production began, basically all of these people who rewrote the engine now were on to some new contract, some other company.
So… nobody in the actual main game dev team can figure out how the overhauled engine (now called SlipSpace) works, they can’t ask any of its actual devs for help, they spend a few years trying to develop the game on it, game is buggy as fuck and difficult to work on… and eventually give up and start redoing everything on UE5.
This all happened because MSFT higher ups wanted to penny pinch the development of the foundation of their biggest IPs next game, by using contractors instead of higher paid FTs, and in the end, it cost them enormous amounts of time an money on something they ended up abandoning anyway.
(I mean, there’s much more to the story of why Halo Infinite’s development was fucked, such as totally rewriting the story of the game midway through development, but the dumpster fire with the engine development is almost entirely due to MSFTs temp vs FT caste system and short term cost avoidant, thus long term cost maximizing management culture.)
Holy shit, is this why California’s ban on the caste system failed? Because companies are leveraging it against H1Bs?
Surely it’s that the ones in the minority believing that promote each other and make everyone else’s life hell.
By ‘deported’, I guess we’re now talking about '
rounded up into mass concentration campsbeing administratively relocated to alternative living accommodations.https://insideevs.com/news/718815/production-teams-will-be-overburdened-tesla-employee/
https://www.cnn.com/2022/11/18/politics/twitter-layoffs-visas-h1b/index.html
We’ve seen Musk use this before, after all.
shortage of engineers? are you kidding me?
I know of two first degree of separation SWEs who can’t land jobs. One worked at microsoft for like a decade.
FTFA:
Other followers accused Musk of simply not wanting to pay top talent what it’s worth.
Bingo, got it in one. They don’t want to pay american talent american wages, they want to pay all talent 3rd world country wages while they themselves pocket a 50 billion dollar contract.
He’s running out of inexperienced engineers to burn through. He statedv early on that he wanted to create a surplus of engineers to drive down the cost.
That cost being, paying the engineers’ salaries.
I work pretty closely with a lot of young engineers. My work brings them in as interns, hires them, but doesn’t pay them very well and after 2 years we have new engineers because they’ve all found better jobs. Saturating the market with talent really hasn’t worked out the way he wanted it to, because as it turns out that’s nothing new.
So now he’s gotta find a new way to pay engineers less.
So now he’s gotta find a new way to pay engineers less.
I imagine it would be something like this:
Position: Senior ML Software Developer
Join the XTesla420X family of goal-oriented, success-driven, rockstar AI/Machine Learning engineers who aren’t afraid to move fast and break things in the name of automation and mankind’s future.With no middle management, you get to be your own boss* and set your own working hours**. The only thing holding to hold you back from greatness is your own potential, and we’re ready to help you thrive in a fast-paced environment where the sky the limit and your own mortality is nothing but a temporary setback.
Requirements:
- 10 years industry experience
- No kids
- A 210% work ethic
- Intimacy with a Python
Compensation & Benefits:
- Exposure in lieu of salary
- Office vending machine
- Office cocaine (unavailable for remote workers)
- Optional unpaid vacation days on statuatory holidays
* reporting directly to Elon Mouske
** minimum 80 per week*must relocate to shithole work site with self funded relocation where labor rights have been repealed and report to duty 6 days a week for minimum 14 hour shifts. 20 for crunch time. We make 996 look like child’s play!
MALLC!!! - Make America Look Like China.
So real it hurts reading it.
Intimacy with a Python
I mean, it helps either way you read it
He’ll buy you a horse! He’ll fire you if you tell him it’s a garter snake.
And how about healthcare? Or will accepting the offer enroll me in clinical trials to have my brain implanted into a robot? Robots don’t need healthcare, pay, sleep, time off, or any of the other things fleshies need to live. Of course, the organic components, such as the brain and possibly spinal cord will require occasional maintenance, but the upkeep cost for those is minimal
POV Me after having my brain put in an Optimus robot: [Says “Kill Me” repeatedly]
No middle managers is pretty attractive ngl
If the CEO is Musk, I’d take as many managers between him and me as I can.
Does it have to be a python? Does a colubrid count?
So now he’s gotta find a new way to pay engineers less.
Well, except scams like the H1B is a pretty old way of setting that up…
It’s a common trick used in American Hiring Practices, knowingly set an impossible standard for hiring. Turn around and say “We can’t fill this position with candidates in the US, here’s the list of people we rejected. Can we get approved for hiring visas?”
And The Government falls for that bullshit guaranteed… after some donations to the Super PAC of course.
There are obviously easily exploited loopholes to enable H1B visas especially for a couple of businesses that hire the most H1Bs.
As long as most countries in this world have median wages well below 33% of the US there will be rampant outsourcing / under the table labor / vastly lower comp H1B roles.
If you truly try to minimize your cost of living the cost to live in the US is surprisingly cheap. Most shit we buy is optional. Rice and beans are cheap, you can find people giving away clothes, transportation can be very cheap and a simple pay as you go phone can be very cheap and be your access to the internet and is fully functional. You can make enough with a job that just pays minimum wage to send enough money home and feed an entire family without yourself worrying about being homeless or going without food.
Immigrants tend to try harder and put up with more bullshit than natives because things are that much better here than back home. Hell, we have food pantries! That’s basically unheard of in most of the world. Billions still struggle to put food on the table outside of the US and western europe. I relied on food pantries as a kid to survive in poverty. My wife is from a third world country and couldn’t believe people would just give food to those in need freely.
I’m not here to bash on immigrants, i’m just pointing out that even the poor in the US generally have more privilege than they could possibly realize. The vast excess of the top 10% in the US is crazy, and the .1% here are so egregiously overcompensated it should probably be criminal.
You can make enough with a job that just pays minimum wage to send enough money home and feed an entire family without yourself worrying about being homeless or going without food.
presses X to doubt
It is possible but it’s not the quality of life Americans are accustomed to. For example, in this scenario you definitely aren’t living alone, it’s many many people living together with the same mindset.
In my wife’s home country a salary of $11k/year is considered typical. Some make a lot less, some make a lot more. So a lot of people get by on about 6k/year.
In my state minimum wage is 16/hr or $33,280. Almost all jobs pay substantially more than this, but if all your costs are day to day are food, transport and renting a room with family/cousins/etc you can afford to send $6000 aka $500/mo. It’s way less than rent anyway. $500/mo can trivially feed a family in most of latin america for a month with some leftover. If you have that much a month you can absolutely survive, but don’t expect any luxuries. AC is unheard of. You probably have a tiny portable washing machine for clothes, the kind kids get for their dorms in the US. You hang your clothes out on a clothesline. Electricity isn’t 100% stable, brownouts are common and so is service interruption. Generators are a luxury. You can’t drink the water without boiling it, so everyone drinks bottled.
My wife was more likely to only send $100-200, because even that little makes a major impact and in the US where we are, it doesn’t do very much. $1 goes a lot further in places like, Venezuela, Dominican Republic, Peru, Ecuador, El Salvador and many, many more countries in the Americas than it goes in the US.
When my wife went clothes shopping in the US for the first time she thought Primark was incredibly expensive. They’re known for being very cheap low quality clothes in the US. Still way more expensive than clothes in her home country (aside from the typical imported luxury brands that few can afford.)
At the start of the pandemic my wife’s mom sold their condo in a wealthy portion of their capitol for about $ 40k US. I just bought a condo that is slightly bigger for about 600k.
So yeah, you can X to doubt all you want but I promise you really don’t know what it’s like in the overwhelming majority of countries in the world. It’s impossible to understand if you haven’t even been to a place that doesn’t speak English.
No I get that. I actually had some guy who did comissions for me and I found him insanely cheap. I didn’t understand how he could charge so low for what I was asking, until the bill came and I saw he was in a South American country where the exchange rate basically meant that when all was said and done; 20 bucks from a North American client was like a couple hundred down there.
What I doubt is being able to find any building on American Soil that you can afford the rent on while working minimum wage. Especially since most entry level jobs will actively prevent you from qualifying for full time benefits no matter how much you work.
What I doubt is being able to find any building on American Soil that you can afford the rent on while working minimum wage.
Minimum wage in massachusetts is $16/hr or 33,280.
Here’s a furnished room for rent, 995/mo aka 12k/year - well within minimum wage budget above, just a hair over 33% of gross. https://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/apa/d/roslindale-995-furnished-room/7813596105.html
here’s another, 1100/mo https://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/apa/d/somerville-roommate-situation-br-avail/7813966888.html
689/mo room for rent (lowell but still possible to find minimum wage jobs near lowell.) https://boston.craigslist.org/nwb/apa/d/lowell-brazilzian-room-mates-furnished/7807989802.html
975/mo https://boston.craigslist.org/gbs/apa/d/everett-private-bedroom-975-month/7811735244.html
There’s no shortage of rooms for rent that are affordable for a single minimum wage income. You’re just not living on your own. Isn’t the trope that 4-6+ immigrants all live together in one house? because that’s what they do to minimize housing expenses. You don’t need a great home to survive or thrive or to even raise kids… because the listings above that we consider actually end up being less finding a random stranger on the internet and more extended family focused where you find family or friends of family who have immigrated to the US and already live in an area. Here in MA that is a mixture of different cities depending on what cultural group you’re from.
Now let’s take a look at a poorer state like Georgia. 7.25/hr minimum wage, or 15k/year. This one will be harder but I suspect people will largely make way more than that since walmart pays closer to 10.
$175/mo https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/roo/d/atlanta-atl-marta-furn-mid-age-man-free/7810363955.html
$400/mo for a trailer (eww, but doable… 4800 a year) https://atlanta.craigslist.org/sat/apa/d/thomaston-mobile-home-for-rent-in/7810137528.html
495/mo atlanta highway loop https://atlanta.craigslist.org/sat/roo/d/red-oak-great-room-available-in-college/7813455844.html
That being said, there are some cheaper places out there. $250/mo (incl utilities) in the heart of the city for a room but women only https://atlanta.craigslist.org/atl/roo/d/atlanta-seeking-cool-roommate-for-old/7813271349.html
Some (likely) gay dude wants a gay dude to move in $350/mo https://atlanta.craigslist.org/eat/roo/d/decatur-sharing-accommodation-with-gay/7814264684.html
If there are situations where you can split a rental even there for that cheap… how can anyone even argue that it isn’t at all possible to survive on minimum wage?
I get that most people do not want to live with strangers or anybody at all if they can help it but it’s a much better option than being homeless or living in a country where you will be paid a couple hundred bucks a month.
They don’t want to pay american talent american wages, they want to pay all talent 3rd world country wages while they themselves pocket a 50 billion dollar contract.
This is usually what tech bro ‘innovation’ boils down to.
I know a guy who’s basically the Goku of computer networking. Listing his accomplishments would doxx him. It took him months to find an escape route out from where he was at.
Ya’ll are not reading between the lines here.
“The number of people who are super talented engineers AND super motivated in the USA is far too low,”
The “AND super-motivated [sic]” is key here. By “super-motivated” he means working 80-100 hours for shit pay.
Yeah, both American citizens and H1Bs area getting tired of this shit.
On another vein, his government “positions” listing
“We need super high-IQ small-government revolutionaries willing to work 80+ hours per week on unglamorous cost-cutting.” for “zero pay”.
Is code for, “I want corporate lackies for this job.” Corporations will pay it’s reps to “work” in these government positions and basically lobby. No one else will bother because normal people got mouths to feed.
It’s not really “between the lines” when he’s been straight up shouting exactly that for years. He’s been very vocal about it at least since he bought Twitter, “keeping only the most talented ones who really want to work” and it turned out that only the immigrants who can’t AFFORD to leave stayed for shit pay.
Another fun thing about H1B holders is that, in their home countries, there are often kickbacks and indenture schemes that mean that they’re spending the first year of their working life in the US paying back someone for “arranging” the work. So if they quit, they’re in debt to the mob, and if they don’t return, their families are at risk.
I’d love to see the entire program scrapped. It’s such bullshit, and always has been. If there is some real talent that is just somehow so rare it cannot be found here, then give people full citizenship after they’ve been scouted for and found. With absolutely ZERO strings attached to any company. If they are so very rare and such high caliber that Americans are somehow lacking, then why on Earth wouldn’t we want them to STAY here and thrive and contribute long-term to this country? Hell, they might even found a company or two…
Instead, we have them stay here six years max on the H-1B and paid less than Americans. WTF? I thought these people are so sought after and so rare, etc…we are going to send them away after six years?
Scrapping the whole system would force us to finally fix our education system and stop intentionally raising unskilled people who leave college with $100k of debt and are still unqualified for a job.
Almost all of the HB-1 sponsors in my workplace are making 100k+. That may be lower than the average pay for that position in some cases, but it’s definitely not starving anyone.
Thank you
The Muskrat wants cheap engineers that will work like China’s 9-9-6.
Well he saw that the only people willing to work at Twitter were extremely desperate to stay in the country
Do I really need to login just to view a comment?
why, would you rather have a less shitty internet?
Is there a Nitter for Bluesky yet? [googles]
Not sure which comment you wanted…
For that comment, yes. It appears that the author has limited it to signed-in users only. This is one way to ensure that the Bluesky moderation tools are applied to everyone who might view / screenshot / interact with the post in question.
This is one way to ensure that the Bluesky moderation tools are applied to everyone who might view / screenshot / interact with the post in question.
What mod tools? Shouldn’t need a login to view or screenshot. Interaction should require an account but I see no reason for the others.
Completely agree. This a grab for leads by Bluesky. Not exactly something I like to see in social media platform outreach tactics…
So a bullshit excuse
